adhesive for wall tile in a shower

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On 7/18/2011 7:17 AM, gpsman wrote:

dadi OH's fine; we've chatted before. If the adhesion is going to fail with a little moisture, shouldn't I be in the market for a more-appropriate adhesive?
--
Uno

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the adhesive can be super great, best ever made but its no stronger than the layer of paper wall board you installed
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We're going in circles. You want an answer that you want. Fine. Your house, your money. You asked for advice, and you've gotten some. The tile sticking is not the problem - water getting past the tile is the problem.
Yeah, I got it - you're in the desert so things dry out quickly. How quickly do they dry out when they're covered by impermeable materials? Mold spores are everywhere. They're on the wood and drywall when you install it. Termites, which do indeed live in hot, arid climates, do eat wood and prefer wet wood.
There are _lots_ of reasons that you should be totally anal about in a shower installation no matter where you live. But you've started winging it, and want advice on how to keep flying. I'm worried about your landing - you don't seem to be. Your house, your money. I've already told you about waterproofing the whole flipping thing so you wouldn't have to worry about the water, and you wouldn't have to worry about the adhesive.
If you're not worried about it, why are you asking for advice? Are you advice shopping like Limbaugh shops doctors for Vicodin?
R
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On 7/18/2011 2:12 PM, RicodJour wrote:

I'm still gleaning details, and fresh voices have different perspectives.
--
Uno

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Uno wrote:

No, you should be looking for a more appropriate surface to apply the tile to in a difficult environment.
Taking off the sheetrock and putting up cement board really isn't that big a deal. Very easy, in fact. Here's what I would do...
1. Remove the drywall
2. Staple 30# building paper all around on the walls in a shingle fashion; i.e., start at the bottom, wrap around all walls with ONE piece, keep going with additional pieces until you reach the ceiling, lapping each piece 3-4" over the one below it, covering the nails/staples. You wind up with one vertical seam so take another piece of 30# and apply it vertically lapping the seam by 6" or so on each side of the seam.
3. Put on the cement board. Where two walls meet, leave enough separation between the pieces of cement board to pack in a bead of silicone caulk. You want the caulk in just the seam, not on the board.
4. Apply the tile with thinset.
5. Grout the tile
6. Seal the grout
Do the above and your shower is going to last a long, long time. The grout in the corners where two walls meet is going to crack; NP, there is caulk back there too...and if that ever failed, the framing is protected by the 30# felt.
--

dadiOH
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gpsman wrote:

And your reply suggests that you have a reading comprehension problem. He didn't ask for substantiation, he asked questions which I answered.
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dadiOH
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Yeah, so I'm told...

"The air got out of it" is not much of an answer to "Why did my tire go flat?" -----
- gpsman
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The drywall will fail because it will get wet. Wet drywall turns to mush.
You can be flippant now about the failure mechanism, but I've never seen anyone flippant when the wall gets opened up. They seem to be more...what's the phrase I'm looking for? - right, pissed off.
A hint about the failure mechanism - when things flex, what fails first? To get you started - houses move with temperature, humidity and load. Show all your work. You have one hour.
R
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I'll give you an hour to support your assertion.
Show your work! -----
- gpsman
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Won't even take two minutes.
You need a shower pan liner under a I'm-sure-you-will-admit-superior- tile-job mud shower base. If a good tile job was truly, automatically and magically waterproof, you wouldn't.
Houses move. QED.
R
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2 minutes to fail to demonstrate how rock prevents a structure from moving...?
Nice work. -----
- gpsman
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I think we're talking at cross purposes. I'm saying houses move no matter what. Are you saying they don't? I'm saying that when a wall flexes the most rigid thing, and/or the weakest bond, fails. In this particular case, that's the tile/grout bond.
I'd also like a little clarification about what you're saying about the tile substrate. A properly done mud job (aka thickset) is far superior in most every way to a tile on drywall job. If a mud job shower absolutely requires a shower pan liner, then I'm of the opinion that it's clear that water can get by the tile and grout. If water can get by a superior tile installation, why wouldn't it get by an inferior installation?
Putting this another way - if someone is starting from scratch, do you advise them to use drywall for a tiled shower installation? Or do you suggest a backerboard of one flavor or another?
R
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Of course not.

I'd recommend one of the rock boards.
But Uno came here looking for advice on alternate adhesives for a tile job because he can't conveniently get real mastic.
I doubt he's got anything other than a ration of shit for using (treated) drywall.
The substrate of shower walls is not the cause of leaks, or structure movement, or settling, or a preventative measure against same. -----
- gpsman
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On 7/18/2011 8:26 PM, gpsman wrote:

So, gps, let me see if I understand your position, because I suspect there is nuance that I haven't found yet.
Assumption 1) You understand that there is no way that I'm gonna rip out my drywall, because NO ONE rips out my drywall, and I make my own decisions as a journeyman carpenter with 2 decades of experience in many regions.
If somebody wants to come in and borrow the pain in my hands when I work with durock, I'm waiting for that stuntman.
Meanwhile, I'll be using sheetrock as my substrate when I think I can get away with it and not screw myself as a person who offers lifetime maintenance on things I design, sometimes. I usually do it with people I want to see again. If a tile falls off or cracks, I'll get a phone call. We joke about "job security," but for me, it is a joke; I'm mortified when I make mistakes.
Let me ask you a simple question: have I screwed myself by using treated drywall in a surround 1/2 shower with no door, and with the first foot of it being durocked, and with the transitions covered with tape and thinset on the bottom and with exposed tape over joint compound in the detail portions up higher?
--
Uno

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I suspected as much.

I hear ya.

Not yet.
You've got rock in the most critical area. A good tile/grout/caulk/ paint job ought to hold you there for 20 years, anyway.
The next weakest area, IMO, would be the drywall above the tile, due to splashing and/or condensation. I think it's important to use a good paint down to 6-12" below the tile line first, then tile over the paint.
You probably won't live to see any warranty issues...
Good luck! -----
- gpsman
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Uno wrote:

IMO, yes.
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dadiOH
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On 7/18/2011 7:51 AM, RicodJour wrote:

I appreciate all comments, but there is no drywall in this install that is going to turn mushy. If you haven't built in the high desert, then you just don't know. If you took any of the houses on my street and teleported them to Chicago, they'd be junk in 5 years. As they are down here, they stand for centuries as mud huts.
--
Uno

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uno as a friend used to say its your back.
your tile install as is will have a bump where the two types of wallboard meet, this joint may cause lekage.
but who cares if you must redo the job in a few years, its your work and cost, so enjoy yourself
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On 7/18/2011 11:21 AM, bob haller wrote:

What do you with a tub surround that only goes up 70 inches? Do you use durock all the way? If there is 0.00 chance of drywall with no tile moldin, mushing or losing it's strength as a building component, why would one be pessimistic about drywall that has protection, that is the tiling?
--
Uno

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Are you asking why problems that are concealed can develop into bigger problems than the things that are discovered right away?
R
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