Believe me, I've always followed the code in whatever jurisdiction I was working in. Sometimes, a jurisdiction will require wiring that exceeds what's in the NEC specs. The trick is to know where you are and what will be accepted. o_O
TDD
I agree with that. As someone else pointed out many posts ago, there are flashlight type LED lights that come with a holder that plugs into a wall outlet. They function as a rechargeable LED flashlight and if the power goes off when they are seated in the charger/holder, they light up. A few of those, plus an LED lantern or two would seem a reasonable solution to me.
Or if you want to power more, ie furnace, well pumps, more lights, fridge etc, then a portable generator with a lockout kit on the panel is what I would do.
"Idiot?" "Managed?"
All he has to do is throw the main breaker and your objections are nullified. I guess you missed the part where I said that. Unfortunately I think 10 minutes after reading this JIMMIE can use his UPS exactly as he requested in his opening message. I say that because while it should work, there are much better ways to accomplish his goal. But probably no easier ones. But I'm no electrician so I concede there may be a flaw in my solution. If so, please enlighten me.
If he follows the steps I suggested in the original message he will accomplish the goal he stated (other than being "approved" - but he certainly can remove the evidence quickly because no rewiring is involved at all:
1) He opens the main breaker so there's no backfeeding the grid in any way.2) He shuts off all BUT the breakers going to low wattage LED lamp circuits.
3) He makes up a short male-to-male AC cord of sufficient size to carry the UPS output current and connects the UPS output to one of the "still live" outlets on the circuits he hasn't shut off. These outlets should only serve low wattage LED lamps. Is there a reason why the juice the UPS is pumping into the still active LED-only circuits won't reach all the outlets on those circuits? Using the panel breakers, he's created a mini-grid of only LED circuits powered by UPS and isolated from the main utility service. No transfer switch needed.4) When the power is restored (he'll have to watch the neighbor's house to know) then all he has to do is unplug the UPS from the male-to-male cable, reset all the breakers to "ON" and throw the main breaker back on when the power is restored.
Seems pretty simple compared to the suggestions involving massive rewires or parallel low voltage systems. Is it what I would do? I might try it the next time the power fails. Hell, I might try it just as a "proof of concept" the next time I have to shut down the panel. I have an LV motion sensor light network to light the floor and LED battery flashlights for "work area" lighting so I am covered, but it would be good to know if it works.
Here's the part I think you missed the first time around.
While skilled electricians might never contemplate the solution I described, I've seen plenty of bootleg wiring that tells me anything is possible. This setup doesn't take rocket science to figure out. I suspect it would be very easy for anyone marginally familiar with electricity to conjur up. If the question's been posted here, I've found it often means *someone's* very likely already figured out a jury rigged answer. The hardest part for many would be cutting two extensions cords in half and wirenutting the male ends together to make a "transfer cord." (-:
Once he makes up the male-to-male power cord to go from the UPS outlet to a "still live" LED circuit outlet, all the outlets on those circuits will be energized from the UPS. I think it's actually relatively safe compared to some of the suggestions that have surfaced in this thread. And, with the cord already fabricated, he could switchover after a failure in about two minutes. Flip ten or fifteen breakers and plug the UPS into one of the few remaining ON circuit outlets via the transfer cable. No modification of the household wiring, no attaching plugs to Romex, no backfeeding outside the house.
It's high efficiency, too. Manual switches, no constantly on UPS - just one that's occasionally charged up to capacity and can wait offline to be connected. Might not even violate the NEC because nothing's permanently attached, but somehow, I doubt it! (-: Where are all our codemeisters?
TDD sez:
Your often "uninterpretable" writing might actually benefit from uninterruptible lighting. If you use phone wire or twin lead or coax to power your lighting circuit then it *will* be "uninterpretable" to anyone coming after you. Especially anyone insane enough to expect phone wire to be connected to (wait for it) telephones, twin lead to TV's, etc!
(-:
The old time phone company pros I knew had two different cases of wiring they disliked (and most often just wired around or over). One was "undocumented" wiring, which was code for "professionally installed but not labeled or mapped" and the other was "customer installed supplied wiring" (which they'd say and then spit in disgust for emphasis). CIW meant "who the fu& knows WHAT it is and where it goes and what it does?" Some might even call it uninterpretable wiring. (-:
What, you never heard of Norm Crosby one of my heroes? I emulate him quite often when writing sometimes porpoisely and sometimes not. ^_^
I was in the alarm business at one time and every installer at every company uses the same type wire for alarm circuits as that used for POTS lines by phone system installers. I know this because I've done both. That's why professionals use test equipment and trust no one. On more than one incursion I've had to repair wiring molested by both trades. ^_^
TDD
The situation you described is exactly what a lot of people do with a generator. It's known as a suicide cord, for obvious reasons.
Not sure which ones you're referring to. The ones I saw were to either use a general purpose UPS with a transfer switch or lockout kit on the panel or to get a wired in UPS for the light circuits that's listed for that purpose. And to wire up 12V LEDs throughout the house, connected to a battery with a charger. None of those are unsafe if done properly.
As to which of those are practical, it sure sounded to me like he wanted to use a UPS he already has, not buy a new hard wired type, ie do something cheap and easy. So, I don't think the idea of buying a hardwired UPS rated for the purpose and permanently installing it is what he had in mind. Wiring up LEDs throughout the house doesn't sound too easy or practical to me either. Not compared to buying a few of those plug-in LED flashlights that sit in a charging cradle. You can use them as a flashlight and if the power goes out when they are in the cradle, they come on. Then you go get your LED lantern, or plug an LED floor lamp into your UPS.
And, with the
It doesn't violate the code when it's just sitting there. But it sure does when you plug it in. I don't see the backfeeding the grid with a UPS to be a great safety risk to linemen. He has a point there. The typical UPS you'd use for say a PC, isn't likely to backfeed the grid for long enough for something to happen to a lineman. The greater risks I see are:
1 - The suicide cord has energized male prongs when the other end is plugged into the UPS. Easy for anyone to unplug it and not realizing it's energized, make contact with it. Someone could trip over it for example, pulling the live end out. 2 - Someone leaves the main breaker closed and the grid power comes back on, feeding into the output of the still operating UPS. Maybe it just trips a breaker in the UPS. Maybe it just creams it. Maybe it blows up, IDK, but I doubt it's designed and rated with that happening in mind.Doing a proper code compliant installation with an inlet, solves #1. Then you use a regular extension cord. And using a panel lockout kit or transfer switch solves #2.
Correct - as long as all the desired circuits are on the same side of the panel. Not code compliant - but it will work. I did (almost) exactly the same thing for my furnace and refrigerator - but using a generator. The refigerator is on a "separate" circuit - I added an outlet to the circuit right beside the panel. The furnace is also on a "separate" circuit. I did the same for it. Then I wired both circuits to a "pull-out" fuse block - with one on each side of the panel. If the power goes off and I need heat, I pull the fuse block and plug the "widdowmaker" from the generator into the "furnace" plug and fire up the generator. If the power comes on I know because the house lights come on. If I need to cool the refrigerator, I plug the "widow-maker" into the fridge circuit. Now, if the power is off and I need lights in the house, I can shut off the main, plug the generator into the fridge or furnace plug, with the fuse block re-installed, and have power to all the lights on THAT side of the panel as long as I do not excede 15 amps total load - or
20 if I put 20 amp fuses in the "replacement" fuse block. the 1959 Onan generator was only good for 2500 watts.Now I have sold the little old Onan, removed the extra outlets and gotten rid of the 115 volt "widowmaker". I now have a 7200 watt 240 volt Champion and a big "widowmaker" that plugs into my 30 amp welder/compressor plug in the garage untill I change my panel and install a generator breaker and interlock so I don't need the "widowmaker" any more - and I will be code compliant.
Untill then I just need to throw the main disconnect before plugging in the genset. My "lockout" to make sure no-one accidentally flips the main back on is to pull the cartridge fuses from the main disconnect and put them in the toolbox on the generator.
As long as the circuit the "widowmaker" is plugged into is disconnected (breaker turned off) no power can get out even if the main is not shut off - but you are limited to one circuit per UPS. (and you don't need to check the neighbours to see if the grid came back up)
Much simpler to just have more than one UPS if you want to feed more than one circuit. The tricky part - when the grid is down, is to be CERTAIN which breaker needs to be tripped to isolate the particular circuit you are plugging into , and to be sure you are plugging into the RIGHT outlet to power the desired lights - which makes shutting off the mains a good idea.
Not that a little plug-in UPS is going to do ANYTHING if connected to the (dead) grid, as far as pumong dangerous power out - and when the grid comes back up it will quickly trip the breaker, and, in all likelihood, let all the "magic smoke" out of the UPS.
Didn't say it was necessarily safe, but it is cheap and effective. (-: But hacking up light circuits to make them "pluggable" doesn't seem to win many safety awards either.
I agree, but we can't really be sure and the OP has not returned for any followup. Shades of the Halloween troll Fred and his electrified sink?
There are some good reasons to wire in LED emergency lights. I did it after I broke my toe because I didn't want to turn the lights on and wake my wife up when I had to check on a sick dog one night. I left a big, black heavy subwoofer out where I could kick it accidentally. That learned me good.
I can understand Jimmie's desire to power the existing low wattage LEDs through a UPS that he already (apparently) owns. It's only natural to want to use the equipment you have on hand to meet a very occasional need. But I agree with you that there are other, better and safer ways to achieve that goal. I took the time to wire up battery powered motion detector LED lights from Philips:
For some reason, they don't seem to be sold anymore so I am glad I bought two cases of both types (built in motion detector v. remote head containing the motion detector). Easy to install and conceal, very reliable and they use photocells to avoid unnecessary daytime activation. They come on when it's dark and there's motion whether the utility power is present or not. I would recommend such lighting to anyone, particularly if they have frequent overnight guests who might not know their way around.
Never had a power failure long enough to drain the 80AH wheelchair battery that powers all of them (they consume very little current when in use and even less on standby. That battery, by the way, has one bad cell that prevents it from properly powering a scooter but it runs the LED lighting A-OK. There's a 500ma trickle charger attached that keeps the battery charged.
There's nothing I like more than squeezing the last bit of utility out of something like an expensive ($120) AGM battery. The battery for my B&D electric lawnmower powered those lights for almost 5 years after it dropped too low in voltage to run the mower. Unfortunately after 5 years almost all the AGM batteries I've dealt with lose their mojo. The battery currently in use probably will need replacing soon just because of its age.
I assumed as much. (-:
If the power failure was caused by a truck snagging the line from the transformer, there might be a hazard to anyone touching the downed wires but I agree, it's remote. I also have to assume that lineman are not so dumb they go around touching conductors with their bare hands after a massive power failure.
Agreed. Clare was right. It's not really an issue with the consumer grade UPSs but it could be with the very high powered units that some have mentioned.
Good point. Makes you appreciate how the electrical plug design is actually quite good at reducing events like that. If I were to do anything like I suggested, and I don't think I would, I would certainly have a checklist that tried to insure the UPS wasn't activated until the plug was firmly in the target socket. Sort of like making sure the hose is connected to the hose bib *before* you turn the water on.
Agreed, too. If you don't operate from a checklist any number of bad things can happen. I mentioned in an earlier post it was anyone's guess what might happen if the power came back on with the UPS in the circuit and not isolated by turning off the main breaker. Clearly shutting off the main breaker is a critical step. But it is in almost any situation where you're energizing your home wiring through means other than the utility supply. That's why transfer switches "automate" that function - to insure you can't energize the house from an alternate source without disconnecting from the mains.
No doubt there's the right way to do this, but I wanted to demonstrate a "proof of concept" that as your suicide cord comment notes is something even a tyro could figure out and no doubt already has. They wouldn't call it a suicide cord if no one ended up dead from it.
As for using a PC-sized UPS, I don't think it would power the lights for very long nor would the constant beep reminder that the UPS is providing power be very pleasant.
For those considering swapping out batteries in those PC-sized UPSs, there's a little demon called "duty cycle" that could be waiting for you. Many of these units are designed to run as only as long as the original battery takes to discharge. Keeping them going for longer with battery swaps can have unpleasant consequences. DAMHIKT. (-:
Very true of the cheap consumer standby units - while "online" UPS units are designed to run at full load 24/7/365 - they have fans for cooling. Yet some of the cheapies WILL run for hours without trouble - and most would at half load. The better ones have an "alarm silence" button that shuts off the "beep".
All the 1kw and larger UPS units I own are designed for continuous duty with cooling fans built in and external battery connectors. When I had my shop which was a 150' long building, I had a number of small consumer grade backup power supplies hooked to the CFL flood lights that were available at the time. They were the type with the replaceable long U shaped tube and the current draw was very low. My 12 watt LED light now at my desk puts out more light than those old 9 watt florescent lamps. I could have had a lot of fun with the small SMD LED modules available these days. I could have lit the whole shop with 12vdc LED modules which would use less power than just one of the dual F96T12 florescent fixtures. Here at the ornery old fart's lair, I can be fast asleep and know when the power goes out because I have 8 UPS units plugged in that will start complaining. I even know when there is any kind of power fluctuation because those UPS units will beep for a few seconds. ^_^
TDD
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.