New gas furnace/AC recommendations?

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    Gee, I wonder why ? Maybe, as has been said here so many times for so many years, the quality and correctness of the installation is the primary determinant of the lifespan and performance of the equipment ? Far above and beyond any considerations of brand, features, etc ?
    A correctly sized and installed ( pick any brand you think sucks ) will far out-perform and out-last an incorrectly sized and poorly installed ( pick any brand you think is great ), that's a fact.

    Most brands do, probably including Goodman. They know, by serial number, what units were sold to what dealers or supply houses, on what date, etc.

    Bullshit. No, you can not.

    Might be.

    Add it to the long list of 'things you don't see'.
    Any hope of you going away now ? Please ?
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On Dec 17, 9:59 am, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

Maybe HomeGuy should take this up with the courts. I doubt he will have any success. It's not at all unusual for manufacturer's to require that the product be purchased and installed from an authorized dealer for the warranty to be honored.
I also seriously doubt that there are any restraint in trade issues with a company choosing to not do business with internet companies that can't install the eqpt and instead just sell it to anyone, anywhere For one thing, they would not be saying you can't sell it on the internet. Only that if you do so, you have to be responsible for the whole sale, including installation. That's a simple issue of protecting the company's image, reliability, insuring customer satisfaction, etc. Take a company like Harley. Does anyone think a case could be made that they are restricting trade because they don't allow just anyone to be a dealer? Or that they can legally deny someone the right to just sell the MC on the internet and ship it in a box?
In reality, some of these companies are probably selling the stuff to these online outlets because they are as greedy as the next company, and looking to increase sales. Some of it also could be getting to online shops via intermediaries, ie other wholesalers who are looking to move more product.
Regarding getting the warranty honored anyway, I would not be surprised if it were honored, IF you met all the requirements. I noticed at least on company, Rheem or Trane, maybe both, require the product to be REGISTERED within a couple months of install for the entire warranty to be honored. I'm sure as part of that process, they damn well ask for who supplied it and installed it. Maybe you could fudge and get by that, don't know.
The thing that gets me in all this is that I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable price to get a system installed. But what I'm seeing here in NJ, is that for a 100K BTU furnace and 5 ton AC, the lowest quote I have allows for $4000 installation above what I can buy the eqpt for. I factored in everything I could think of, eg, eqpt, lines, disconnect, whip, 410A, chimney liner, and it still comes out that they are getting $4000 to install it. I figure it should take 2 guys 1 day. If they charged $100/hr, that's $1600. If it takes 2 full days, that's still only $3200. Actually, in this economy I'm shocked that it can be this high.
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On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 08:42:22 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

    They DO ask that. And require it. Then they track their dealers in re customer complaints, warranty returns / submissions, etc, and they WILL stop doing business with dealers that have high problem rates. Again, to protect their product reputation.

    Steve will gladly supply you a 3 page list of things you forgot ;-)
    The difference is between 'having a website, with a warehouse someplace and some minimum wage droids driving a forklift', vs 'having a local business, with trained employees, insurance, trucks, tools, stock, advertising, insurance, covering warranties and call-backs, 24 hour / day on-site trained person service, 'standing behind their product and work', etc etc'.
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Maybe HomeGuy should take this up with the courts. I doubt he will have any success. It's not at all unusual for manufacturer's to require that the product be purchased and installed from an authorized dealer for the warranty to be honored.
I also seriously doubt that there are any restraint in trade issues with a company choosing to not do business with internet companies that can't install the eqpt and instead just sell it to anyone, anywhere For one thing, they would not be saying you can't sell it on the internet. Only that if you do so, you have to be responsible for the whole sale, including installation. That's a simple issue of protecting the company's image, reliability, insuring customer satisfaction, etc. Take a company like Harley. Does anyone think a case could be made that they are restricting trade because they don't allow just anyone to be a dealer? Or that they can legally deny someone the right to just sell the MC on the internet and ship it in a box?
In reality, some of these companies are probably selling the stuff to these online outlets because they are as greedy as the next company, and looking to increase sales. Some of it also could be getting to online shops via intermediaries, ie other wholesalers who are looking to move more product.
Regarding getting the warranty honored anyway, I would not be surprised if it were honored, IF you met all the requirements. I noticed at least on company, Rheem or Trane, maybe both, require the product to be REGISTERED within a couple months of install for the entire warranty to be honored. I'm sure as part of that process, they damn well ask for who supplied it and installed it. Maybe you could fudge and get by that, don't know.
The thing that gets me in all this is that I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable price to get a system installed. But what I'm seeing here in NJ, is that for a 100K BTU furnace and 5 ton AC, the lowest quote I have allows for $4000 installation above what I can buy the eqpt for. I factored in everything I could think of, eg, eqpt, lines, disconnect, whip, 410A, chimney liner, and it still comes out that they are getting $4000 to install it. I figure it should take 2 guys 1 day. If they charged $100/hr, that's $1600. If it takes 2 full days, that's still only $3200. Actually, in this economy I'm shocked that it can be this high.
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In this economy, *EVERYTHING* is high, and there are a hell of a lot more things to be paid for than *JUST* your installers salaries.
for a 5 ton A/C in New Jersey, you got to have one hell of a big house. Here in south Mississippi where we have 9 months of summer(90F+), and brutal humidity levels, I would most likely install 5 tons in around 3500sqft.
From my company, complete installation of an "entry level" 5ton 13SEER A/C, with 100,000btu 80+ AFUE 2stage. variable speed(ECM) gas furnace, you would be looking at $8200 plus sales tax installed. Prices on "Prestige" systems and "Premium" systems are higher. We do everything on flat rate... the price we quote, is the price you pay, and it doesn't matter if it takes 3 minutes, or 3 hours, or 3 days. We do not charge "labor". Our prices are printed in a book, and are not subject to negotiation. We do not "break down" our pricing any more than Walmart does. We *DO NOT* install any parts or equipment that were not purchased through us, strictly because of liability and warranty issues.
Any legitmate company will have the simular policies.
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I realize that. And I was never counting installers salaries at all. What I was factoring in was a reasonable labor rate charged to me. The installers are obviously getting a lot less than that. Around here, you go to the major auto dealers for service and they are charging the customer around $100/hr labor rate. That includes the wages, overhead, profit, etc sufficient to run the business.

3150 sq ft. And we have 90+ deg with high humidity too. Not as many days as you, I'm sure, but I still need the capacity for those days, no?

That's almost exactly what the lowest quote I have here for the Rheem system is. So, here's my issue. When I account for all the materials, I can buy them for about $4200. That's shipped here and me buying qty one. That leaves $4,000 to cover the labor of install. Allowing $100/hr for labor, (note that includes overhead, profit, etc and is not the what the installers are paid), and allowing a day and a half for 2 guys to install it, which I think is generous, that would be $2400, not $4000.
When you take your car in for service to a dealer around here, it's generally right around $100 an hour for labor. Given the job and skill set, and comparing it to an auto dealer rate, I don't think factoring in $100 an hour per man labor rate is unreasonable. And I would think that an HVAC contractor is probably getting a better price on the eqpt than I can. Maybe I'.m missing something here, but I don't know what it is.

The contractors here, like most, are willing to negotiate.

So, a legitimate company won't negotiate? Seems rather odd given the state of the economy. With new construction in the tank, I'm really surprised that these guys aren't negotiating even more.
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I realize that. And I was never counting installers salaries at all. What I was factoring in was a reasonable labor rate charged to me. The installers are obviously getting a lot less than that. Around here, you go to the major auto dealers for service and they are charging the customer around $100/hr labor rate. That includes the wages, overhead, profit, etc sufficient to run the business.
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A certified Master HVAC Tech is not an auto mechanic, A certified Master Tech is a highly skilled, and highly trained specialist. Personally I do 5 - 7 semester hours every year in continuing educations and training just to keep up with the new technologies, and the latest advancements. Yes I am a certified Master Tech, and my labor rate has not been down to $100/hr in many years. Bubba in a pick-up truck with a refrigerant jug and ticket book as a rule doesn't have that kind of training, education or experience, nor does "Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob" that does it on the side.

3150 sq ft. And we have 90+ deg with high humidity too. Not as many days as you, I'm sure, but I still need the capacity for those days, no?
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It depends on a whole lot of factors.... first you need a complete room-by-room Manual J heat load/loss calculation done. That will tell you exactly how many BTUs you need to heat and to cool your home, and if you even need a 5 ton A/C.

That's almost exactly what the lowest quote I have here for the Rheem system is. So, here's my issue. When I account for all the materials, I can buy them for about $4200. That's shipped here and me buying qty one. That leaves $4,000 to cover the labor of install. Allowing $100/hr for labor, (note that includes overhead, profit, etc and is not the what the installers are paid), and allowing a day and a half for 2 guys to install it, which I think is generous, that would be $2400, not $4000.
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Maybe you should give classes on how HVAC contractors can go broke in 6 months or less.
When you take your car in for service to a dealer around here, it's generally right around $100 an hour for labor. Given the job and skill set, and comparing it to an auto dealer rate, I don't think factoring in $100 an hour per man labor rate is unreasonable. And I would think that an HVAC contractor is probably getting a better price on the eqpt than I can. Maybe I'.m missing something here, but I don't know what it is.
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What your missing is the business of running a business, as well as the simple fact that a Master HVAC Tech is not an auto mechanic, and the HVAC tech is bringing his "shop" to the customer in the form of a service truck.

The contractors here, like most, are willing to negotiate.
They are "negotiating" just for the work, and don't care if they make enough to pay the bills, salaries, or taxes.

So, a legitimate company won't negotiate? Seems rather odd given the state of the economy. With new construction in the tank, I'm really surprised that these guys aren't negotiating even more.
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I don't do new construction because I can make more money sitting in my recliner. I will not work at a loss. I would rather not work at all if I can't at least break even. As far as the economy, I have had a record year.
I fired a customer because he asked if I worked on the side.... I told him that I am the company owner, and that I am not going to STEAL from my own company, and I would fire any employee that did any HVAC work on the side.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Last time I looked, we were in a recession, and nobody's turning away business.

Did the quotes break-out the price for the hardware separately?

I would have thought you could buy all that for closer to $3500 easily.
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Furnaces with ECM motors generally have a larger blower wheel and housing so they can turn slower and move the required volume of air. Air volume and velocity is set up for specific amount of heat temperature rise in furnaces and 400cfm per ton for heat pumps and air conditioning. Also because the ECM motors are turning slower, there is a whole lot less blower noise, but the ductwork has to be correctly sized. If everything is right with the world, the system is correctly designed, sized, and installed, it should have minimal energy usage, be nearly silent, no drafts, and no more than 1F temp difference between any 2 rooms.
If you want to continue screwing with your furnace, have at it...... just as soon as you get done using the hand crank to start your car.
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On 12/13/2010 10:36 PM, Steve wrote:

Hey, I could hand crank my 1967 Renault 10 with the screw jack handle. :-)
TDD
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 02:09:13 -0600, The Daring Dufas

Switching power supplies are a replacement for many linear *series* (not shunt) regulators. Series regulators have the active device in series with the load. Shunt regulators have their regulating element in parallel (shunt) with the load.
Series Regulator (pass element) Shunt Regulator ____ | | ___ +-----+-| |-+-----+ +----+|_R_|-+--+------+ | |____| | | |/ | /+\ | .-. /+\ Zener - .-. (Vin) | | |Load (Vin) (Shunt) /A | |Load \-/ === | | \-/ | | | | GND '-' | | '-' | | | === | === | === GND | GND === GND == GND GND
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)
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On 12/12/2010 10:35 AM, snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

I'm sorry, I should have written linear, I stand corrected. I've worked on enough of the darn things. It used to be everything had a linear regulator and heavy transformer but the power supplies were simple and reliable. The 78xx series regulators and LM317's make it so easy to put together a regulated supply for a project. I was working in TV shops back in the 70's when RCA, if I recall correctly, came out with a TV set that used the flyback transformer as a newfangled power supply for the whole set. The company rep had one of the new "all solid state" sets hooked to a variac transformer which he used to run the voltage up and down. We were all impressed by the fact that the set would show a clear but slightly shrunken picture when the power to the set was turned down to 80 volts AC. I knew then that things were know going to get very interesting in the field of consumer electronics. Most of the sets we were working on had hybrid circuitry using transistors and IC chips for low power and low voltage then tubes for the high voltage horizontal output stage. I remember when a horizontal output tube was under $5.00 and a horizontal output transistor was $25.00 or more. Gasoline was also 30 cents a gallon back then. Gosh darnit! I think I'm getting old. :-)
I just had a flashback to the good old Radio Shack 12 volt DC power supplies the company sold for powering up a car or CB radio out of a vehicle. The early units used a TO-3 power transistor and a zener diode as a voltage reference in the circuitry. The latter versions used the LM317 and 78xx series regulators. I get the same power now from a wall wort that feels so light for the power it will supply. Oh yea, some of those Radio Shack power supplies were unregulated. :-)
TDD
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 10:35:33 -0600, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

GENERALLY used in a series configuration because it is more efficient that way.
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 16:30:58 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Switching shunt regulators are exceedingly rare because the gain generally isn't worth the cost. Another topology almost always wins.
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On 12/12/2010 6:29 PM, snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

I came across a ferroresonant transformer power supply in a piece of gear a friend had and he was mystified by the darn thing and why it wasn't working. I obtained a replacement oil filled capacitor from an electric motor rewind shop and got the equipment working again. He had worked with all manner of DC voltage regulators but had never seen an AC voltage regulator. I guess it helps to broaden your horizons in a search for knowledge. :-)
TDD
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 19:08:26 -0600, The Daring Dufas

They also are not often used anymore because it's cheaper to use a switcher of some sort. Iron is expensive. Silicon is cheap.
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On 12/12/2010 7:52 PM, snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

I have a notion that the constant voltage transformer is a lot less susceptible to voltage spikes and lightening strikes than a switcher. I've installed a lot of them to protect phone systems power supplies. The things work well as AC line filters and isolators.
TDD
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 19:52:10 -0600, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

required - and MUCH cheaper than silicon.
It's just you need so much LESS silicon to do the job - and less iron and copper when the frequency is in the khz or mhz range.
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 23:08:49 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Which, of course, is a *silly* argument.

Ran across one lately that runs at 180MHz so the (isolation) transformer could be integrated on the chip.
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 18:29:50 -0600, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

brushless "alternators" on small engines and some motorcycles.
With per-mag "alternators" or "dynamos" the output cannot be controlled, so shunt regulators are used. Linear shunt regulators have proven rather short-lived in some apps, so the higher-end units have gone to switch-mode regs.
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That is amperage draw not power consumption.
The GE ECM units don't have any PFC so they have the same roughly .6 power factor as any old computer power supply that just has a diode bridge and capacitor at the input. That 6.3x120x.6 is roughly 454 watts. Since 1hp is 746 watts that puts the efficiency at about 82%
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