How to re & re with a new 3/4" compression ball valve while water is streaming

these are the issues: 1)how to finish old 3/4" copper tube cut ends I'll be putting into the valve bores after using the tube cutter 2)which of my two valve assembly methods to use for sliding the valves' bores onto the tubes' cut ends, and ease of sleeve manipulation 3)disconnection/unscrewing at the water meters "out" connection and if there are any seals or fittings of any material I need to obtain, and if I can (safely) use a galvanized cap temporarily to stop the leaking water flow, with or without Teflon tape or plumbers dope
I purchased a B&K 3/4" Ball Valve with compression fittings (on both ends) which I want to install in a vertical stretch of 3/4" copper tubing JUST AFTER the horizontally mounted ("Trident Canada/Neptune") water meter. This is because my current original main water shut-off valve, near front of house, up through slab, located JUST BEFORE the water meter is faulty. It is faulty in that it does not shut off the water completely when it is fully closed - it still flows at a rate of about a 12oz. glass of water every minute. It is also a "poor" shut-off valve because it very stiff to close the old hand wheel handle even with a wrench. I have some repair soldering to do elsewhere in the house, so I need to be able to shut off and drain the lines completely. My water company could come out and shut the water off at the street ($15 charge each time either to turn the water off, or on, or both, if extremely fast). The faulty old valve is installed with very tight proximity on rusty old/ painted "pipe" or tube, with hex fittings, and is too difficult to fix or replace without more experience and having to call the water company.
In order to fit the new valve into the vertical run I have bought a wheel-type mini tube cutter. The valve installed will be about 3-7/8" from end to end, including outer nuts and compression sleeves installed. I have measured both sides for the distances from the outer edges to the bottoming points (.967" & .835", plus the 3/8" sleeve and 1/16" edge of locking nut), and subtracting from the 3-7/8", the valve will displace 1.282" of 3/4" vertical copper tubing, which I have to cut out.
After I mark and cut out the 1.282" of 3/4" tubing with the mini wheel tube cutter (Brasscraft T007 from HD), do I need to touch up the ends of the freshly cut tubing? I have never done this before, so I can only assume that the outer edge will be chamfered from the wheel of the cutter, and that the end will be straight, and any burr will be on the inside, and irrelevant, except it may chip off in drinking water. The water will be running through the tubing at an estimated 12oz./minute, so should/could/would I try to touch up the ends in any way with a file, or sandpaper, or brush? Its the inside of a compression fitting, remember.
Next, there are 2 ways I can insert the valve into the displaced area of the tubing. The first is to cut the gap larger than the calculated 1.282", so I can slip the nuts then sleeves on both pieces of Vert. tubing, and slide on end of the valve up to the bottoming point, then align and slip in the other end of the valve, and center it all. This means that neither end of the tubing would be at the bottoming point of the valve. I would just have to position the valve so it was centered and have an equal maximum connection join on both sides. I haven't calculated how much of the 3/4" tube ends would be mating in the bores this way, but I also have a little flex in the V-H-V pipe/meter/pipe/tube assembly too. I do not know how tight the sleeves will be on the tube, and how easy it will be to adjust their position during assembly. Am unsure if it would be advisable to put the sleeves in boiling water, or something for a minute to expand them prior to assembly to make them easier to slide. Another way is to unscrew the water meter compression fitting on the "out"-end connection with the nut, which gives me the ability to snuggly butt the tube ends to the bottoming points (or best possible) in the valves bores. I like this idea. I am at a standstill because I am not sure if there are going to be rubber seals or compression pieces which would need replacing, either I would have to get them beforehand or not use this method. I do not know if a permanently leaking problem will make it hard/impossible to re-connect it the nut and any washers or seals inside. To take the pressure off me, I may be able to stop the flow instead of using buckets/trays. I bought a 3/4" galvanized cap in the plumbing dept of HD which seems to have the same thread as the thread on the out"-end connection of the water meter. In pondering, the guy at HD did check it against another thread coming off something. I am out of my depth w/r/t the thread types, like NPT vs. NC, but I viewed 4 threads (5 crests) in 4-1/2" or 4-2/3" sixteenths on a steel rule and a major diameter of 1.044" on a dial caliper, which is an estimated 1"-14, regardless of thread type The cap I got has a similar visual distance between 5 crests (4-1/2+), and a minor diameter of .934". That's a .110" (1.76/16ths) diff b/t meter's max and nut's min thread diameters, and a visual tpi equality of +/- 0.1/16". Still I am in no way sure if the cap will fit, or even if I should disconnect the water meter "out"-end connection. ALL hardware before the Vertical 3/4" tube I intend to splice into looks like pipe fitters "pipe" type components vs. copper "tube", but I'm not sure. Also, the HD guy said to use Teflon tape to seal the cap, but what about re-assembly and whether to clean or add Teflon tape, with or w/o seals or fittings. .
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You need to change the main shut off valve in my opinion.
There are many ways to do so. $15 with the city sounds cheap to me as long as you are ready to work with them.
You have never said what your piping (the stuff coming in from outside) is made from, it makes a huge difference. Choices: copper, pvc, iron pipe (probably galvanized), other. Unknown is not an acceptable answer and if you don't know you need a plumber. It surprises me that you have a shut off on the city's side of the meter. If you plan to remove the existing valve on threaded pipe, make sure you use a back up wrench on the pipe so your problems don't multiply.
You describe hex fittings which might be iron pipe fittings. If someone else wound it on, you can wind it off or cut it off. Be prepared to cut the pipe or remove the old one, have a new one ready to go. I would plan on installing a new FIP ball valve. If you have to cut the pipe, here is an example of a compression valve that could work: <http://www.watts.com/pro/_productsFull_tree.asp?catIdd&parCat "6&pid`9&ref=2> . You would like to find a Ford type connection. Once you have the water stopped, you can do whatever needs to be done. ______________________________ Keep the whole world singing . . . . DanG (remove the sevens) snipped-for-privacy@7cox.net

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Thanks and I'll try to get everything I can from your post, but I know any of that. I thought I explained myself clearly. It is clear to me what to do, and should be to you now too. I need answers to these specific questions as much as ever now, as clear and easy as they may be. I posted legitimate questions. I don't appreciate allegations and inappropriate questions about it. The stuff I am have is probably "pipe" as in iron pipe, not "tube" as in copper tube, plastic, or other, there wouldn't be hex fitting on anything else in this situation, though I rarely have though about such things. The unknown here is your answers to my questions. I do not need a plumber; I already have the ball valve, I just want to know how to use it and do these other things before I get water everywhere, by asking simple questions. Just have to wait around a while for the simple answers. However, I certainly don't want to get off on the wrong foot.

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The lowest extreme of the current leaking valve is actually below the finished floor height, it is very close to wall to the point that I would at a minimum have to take the handles off the old and new valves to spin it on & off for a re&re. Then I'd have to butcher the wall. New position is better. The thread is painted, rusted/corroded, covered in hardened (all length of unused thread unpenetrable with pointy stick) crud, and if installing a new unit I would have to calculate the correct number of turns via the length of the new fitting in order to use the old (L -shaped mirrored through a Horiz line) run of pipe-fitted water line to get it to the same height and tightness with the street run and the "in"-end of the water meter. Then I'd have to call the water company to shut off the water for day(s) causing extra money, time, and aggrevation.
So let me see if I can draw out the right answers to my original questions. These are just the best-case answers. There are obviously other answers. I may be partially or fundamentally wrong. Please tell me.
1)how to finish the old 3/4" copper tube cut ends I'll be putting into the

answer option (1i) Unless there is a very unlikely situation which you could see and correct a problem otherwise, after the spin cutter is used, the end is as straight as it can be, and there will never be any burr on the outside or end. The burr or hook on the inside is irrrelevant and you never have to worry about it working loose and getting into any seals in any faucets anywhere else throughout the house. Never sand, file, or wire-brush the outside diameter of a pipe used in a compression fitting, however do ensure it is clean prior to cutting it. Rub with a rag and Mr. Clean. [It looks smooth and round, though discoloured]. Compression fittings should NOT leak, and are acceptable domestic plumbing.
2)which of my two valve assembly methods to use for sliding the >valves' bores onto the tubes' cut ends, and ease of sleeve

answer option (2i) Remove the pipe/elbow/tube form the male "out"-end of the water meter after cutting out only enough tubing neccesary to bottom the two tube ends into the valves bores. It is always possible to move the sleeve with some difficulty expected, though it is rarely impossible: while being careful not to dent or scratch it. Use a rag and screwdriver and/or edge of wrench jaws, or make a wooden sleeve-sliding tool. If the sleeve will not fit or slide call the water company to shut off the water, and install a soldered valve
3)disconnection/unscrewing at the water meters "out" connection

answer option (3i) Just unscrew the nut connecting to the male "out"-end of the water meter, and re-tighten it. There are no rubber or steel fittings you need to worry about, inspect, or replace. if it is a good seal now, it will be again when you re-connect and tighten it again [For some reason I am willing, if not delusional, to take the chance of not re-mating at the meter for the sake of bottoming the tube in both ends of the ball valve bores when I cut out a segment]
You can use the galvanized cap, as it is the same thread (given your observations are valid ), and considering there will be several liters of water possibly it is advisable, especially if something goes wrong, though it WON'T [Though I am really unsure what thread "name-type" the water meter and/or the current valve is: NPT (tapered) or a straight thread such as an ANSI/ASME nc)
With the amount of water leaking (12oz./minute) there will be NO problem attaching the cap, or re-attaching the line due to pressure build up,
I wouldn't use teflon tape on the cap put temporarily on the "out"-end of the water meter, because with a dish-bucket tray underneath and a rag you will use anyways drip will be minimal. It is only advisable to use tape when you re-tighten the pipe, but since there are no visible signs of tape or dope now on either side, don't get too advanced.
btw, TIA everyone, and for those who caught my earlier post the BORG advise that the right normal "bleeder knob" downstream of my current shut-off valve gate is for back-draining the cut-off water after closing the valve.
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It would be possible to convince me to just replace the faulty valve with a new ball valve in the same position with treads instead of using another compression-type valve a few feet away. I'd have to hack out the wall, tile around the new ball valve, and call the water company to shut off the water for day(s). I would be willing to do it; myself, and would appreciate anybody telling me the depending on the following:
First I'd need to know that there would be enough length of thread which is currently covered with the current valve threads to seat a new valve. the painted over dope edges - it looks painted-over furry, its hard! I don't even know if I could dent it with a screwdriver and hammer, let alone clean it off. Then I'd need to know that, I guess with dope involved, between the 2 thread ends that I would be able to orient the rotation of the old or new assembly so that the water meter IN would line up. That is, the tightness would need not be of great importance, and the current thread length is sufficient to back off possibly nearly 180 degrees less than full tight. I don't know if this is a problem with this type of thread. Not sure if they are all the same, or what they are.. Also the overall length of the new valve would need to be similar to the old. Otherwise I'd need to get HD, or someone else possibly, to cut and thread new lengths of pipe. Btw, the thread on the street pipe is below the concrete grade, and only an inch away is dirt. This is the end of the road. I plan on filling in with screeding and covering with a partially mudded tile soon - no weight or traffic at all there.
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I don't understand why you don't just turn off the valve at the meter, open the faucets, remove the valve handle, clean the seat, install new seals, and be done with it ? The valve was installed after the wall was built. Why is there no room ? A wood shim to back it (pipe and valve) off of the wall may help give you the needed room to remove the valve stem. The $15 for the city to shut off the water is cheap. A meter key is about the same price. If you add copper to galvanized, you will have electrolitic action without proper method. Dielectric union....teflon tape, teflon dope....

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I built the wall. I could change it in minutes. I have not said I was to add a brass valve specifically to the copper pipe, but it is true. The "leak" is not through the handle, it is through to the faucets that you open all over the house. The main & only water shut-off valve before the water meter does not fully close - water flows through it to all the pipes. Are you saying I can fix that? Or that you can fix a leak through the handle. IOW I cannot shut the water off with the gate in the valve, then take the gate in the valve out to add seals to it, can I?

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No you HAVE TO shut the meter off first. Then drain the rest of the house through the lowest faucets.Open the highest also to allow air in to drain. Think of a drinking straw... I understand the valve does not shut the water off from the rest of the house. This is your service supply shut off valve. The seals are on the valve stem (part attached to handle). You could also get a new valve identical to the one which is not shutting off the supply, remove the handle and stem, reseat the inside with a seating tool, and put the new stem in. If you want to be miserly, just match the seals on the old one at HD or a hardware store. If you are really ballsy, you could get them at a plumbing supply, if they don't have them at Homers Depot. But you have to shut off the meter first.

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So you can shut the (one and only/ same main shut-off ) valve off, open all faucets and flush all toilets, then unscrew the hex nut around the valver stem holding in the valve stem in, remove the innards, and either clean and replace all parts, or put in an identical units innards (only if using a seating tool. Is the water runing through? Or is it stopped by some parts that are still left in the housing of the valve ?
Do I need to understand this better. I'm not sure if this is any different than you expained above. If replacing (this is ballsy or miserly depending on where you go) or the act of just replacing is miserly or ballsy.
Again there are 2 options, both can be accomplished on your one & only main shut-off valve: i)replace the seats ii)replace the entire stem with seats attached

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First, the meter must be turned off. Second, drain the system. Flushing toilets is not necessary. Third, unscrew the stem nut. Fourth, unscrew the stem from the valve body Fifth, reseat the valve body. Sixth, replace stem, packing, seat seals or entire stem with new seals attached already from new valve. Pitch valve body or use it as a paperweight. Seventh, turn meter back on.
Now you wont have an old valve in your system which WILL leak around the stem later or sooner.
Miserly : just buying the seals and seating tool (least expensive) buying the new valve and seating tool, removing the stem complete and replacing in old valve body after cleaning the seat. (easiest, fastest, and stem will be stronger) Ballsy : going amongst pros...

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I think the OP said the meter was after the leaking main shut off, so how does this help?
Wayne
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I believe the OP was talking about the layout FROM his house back to the meter. If the valve is "before" the meter, it would be the city's problem. Besides, he said he built a wall, against the bad valve. A tile wall...
wrote:

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I have one leaking valve before the meter i.e leaking valve is closer to the street than the meter.
The meter itself has NO shut off capability.
I phoned the water company and they said this leaky valve was my problem (I explained it as before, they asked no questions, maybe I'll phone again since there may be some confusion).
Forget about the drywall. Lots of room. It looks nicer now I have insulated and painted the whole room. How about the valve being below the concrete slab level!!! If I ever had to spin off this one and only shut-off valve off without taking the hand wheel off first I'd just have to punch out the drywall, then repair and paint it again.
I am thinking of doing what marson did. Add another (better ball- type) shut-off valve after all the pipe-fitted thread cutted iron pipe - in the first piece of 3/4" copper tubing after the meter.
Back to the point. Can I fix the old valve, and do I need to shut the water off at the street, or at the one & same valve I am fixing, to do it. These questions are as important as any I have asked and will affect my decision. With hundreds of qualified people reading my several questions, I can count the useful comments on one hand - I am open to anything.
wrote:

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I'm sure you can fix the valve, but I personally don't know how. You will need to remove the pressure from the valve to do so, that would mean turning off the water at the street.
If the valve is leaky only in that you can't shut if off 100%, i.e. it doesn't leak to the surrounding area, then it may be simpler to just abandon it and install a new valve afterwards. Particularly if the old valve shuts off sufficiently for you to do the install of the new valve.
I haven't really followed all your posts, but I do have one comment: if you are working on a vertical riser, then if the old valve allows water through at a low enough rate, you should be able to blow the water out of the riser and solder a new valve or MIP fitting onto the riser before the water level gets high enough to interfere again.
Yours, Wayne
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I think you are too late. This piece of garbage has been made into a monster. I need 3 lawyers, a firefighter, and a priest.
wrote:

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(OP): that is what I said
wrote:

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(OP): so I should be able to fix the valve

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Yes you can repack a valve if the meter is turned off and you don't have water at 30-40PSI at the bad valve. If you omit reseating the valve, you will wear out the seals turning the valve on and off repeatedly. You want to just remove the rough corrosion inside, where the seal meets the seat.

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My meter doesn't "turn off" and even if it did it wouldn't have any effect on the pressure on the valve.

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