40 gal just not enough: Replacing water heater for 2400 sq home. Family of 2 adults + 2 children

Page 12 of 13  
On Apr 7, 1:24 pm, "Thomas G. Marshall"

Get an 80 gallon water heater. Check the efficiency rating tag on the heater and get the most efficient one. Ignore all other comments -- sometimes you can get too much information.
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.

your far better off with a higher BTU tank........
incidently 2 tanks in series is best for added capacity....... but doubles standby losses..
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"Thomas G. Marshall"

Yes.
The 40-gallon water heater in our old house died just as our three daughters "discovered" hot water.
I installed a 50-gallon. It was a PERFECT fit for the five of us.
In our next house, built in 1991 with one full and two 3/4 baths, we have a 50-gallon heater and have virtually never run out of hot water.

Probably not a LARGE increase. Your hot water consumption is what it is, whether it is delivered using a 40-gallon tank or an 80. The cost to heat a gallon of water will be the same with either tank. It's the standby loss that would make the biggest difference between the two sizes.

I think they're all the same. Price difference will be dictated by length of tank warranty and BTU input.
Have your plumber install his spec model 50. Done. Have fun!
--
:)
JR

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On Apr 7, 12:24 pm, "Thomas G. Marshall"

Do you have water reducing shower heads and faucet strainers, Your tank may not have the recovery or as I realy suspect, a waste of hot water as in long showers and hw faucets run without concern. I would not recommend a tankless with a large family that is not truely trying to be conservative on water as it will likely cost more to heat with tankless, Kids will do the 20 min shower. A 40 with faster recovery, a bigger tank, will all work, so might education and conservation.
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"Thomas G. Marshall" wrote

Should be 15 but if it's hard worked, perhaps 10 is ok.

40G is ok. Not optimal for long showers if there are several and need to take them within 20 mins of each other (night time shower with several kids).

Yup. If you can, go 50/60G. More is overkill.

Yes though it will let all 4 shower within minutes of each other.

Not with a mere 10-20G difference

Has more to do with construction of your place. If it has to fit in a cabinet for example, that cabinet may not be sized safely to hold a larger unit. There may be distance from the walls for example involved.

Sorry, cant answer. If it helps though I have a 40G GE 'Smart Saver' gas hot water heater. I do have to be a bit careful to not take a shower or bath right after running the dishwasher or another's shower. 20 mins seems to work for the wait. It's 14 years old and i seem to recall the wait 10 years ago was about 10 mins so we may be getting near replacement time. IT's in the garage so there is no space problem if we get a bigger one.
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wrote in message

If the users of said hot water are old enough, yet not too old to move out of the way quickly, just bump the temp setting up higher. Adjustment to less hot water for comfort should save some hot water for other purposes. Extremely lengthy showers are always a concern. They may be longer as a result, with same lack of hot water. The predominant male is in order to fix that lack of discipline.
--
Dave



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"Dioclese" <NONE> wrote in message

The simple solution: let the kids shower last. Mom and Dad go first and take long long showers to use up all the hot water and let the kids learn that waiting is the result of their taking long showers and being inconsiderate of others. Either that, or they will take colder shorter showers until they catch on. If they ever do.
Steve
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My dad and mom had a 3 bedroom home. I grew up with 7 brothers and sisters. We had a 40 gallon natural gas water heater for the house, and another outside for the washer only. We all knew there was a time interval between showers and baths for hot water. The hot water heater closet was immediately next the the single bathroom. It stopped protesting noises when it was ready again. And, yes, sometimes someone would have to do without for a day, or stay up later.
Currently, I live alone. I've got a 40 gallon electric version 2 tank model. It runs out of hot water around the time just before I fill the bath so I end up with mediocre hot water. I love hot water. The shower always is less warm than the bath. From the git-go to the end of short shower. Got one of those one valve jobbers for selecting hot/cold for the shower and bath. Haven't figured that out yet.
--
Dave



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On Apr 7, 10:24 am, "Thomas G. Marshall"

My comments to others coments.
40 gallons enough? Items that affect hot water usage and volume 1.    Is there a dip tube. 2.    Is the hot and cold pipes connected properly 3.    Baths instead of showers 4.    This depends on the life style of the occupants a.    Length of showers b.    Is hot water running while brushing teeth 5.    Number of occupants 6.    Hot or warm laundry 7.    Recovery rate of the water heater 8.    Are the shower heads 1.6 gpm or 2.5 gpm or much higher 9.    The distance of piping between the water heater and the usage points 10.    Are the pipes fully insulated 11.    The temperature of the water heater 12.    Amount of sediment in the tank
Any time the occupants presently run out of hot water and a new system in installed and there is plenty of hot water the amount of gallons will then go up. As for the increase of cost, this depends on the amount of increase of hot water in gallons and the efficiency increase of the new unit.
Tankless water heaters: Generally the only information on efficiency is verbal from the salesperson. The efficiency of water heaters is in AFUE and most tankless units are not rated in this manner. I agree there is no standing loss due to the lack of a tank. The efficiency on large usages can be ok the efficiency on the small usages can be very poor. This would only make it a fair choice.
There are only a few that are above 90% or what we call condensing units. The units that are designed to keep a constant output temperature are expensive and complicated. And hope no repairs are needed. If the water in your area is full of sediments they need regular cleaning. They should have a sediment filter to keep particles from clogging their filter. If one wants a on-demand circulating pump they will not work with tankless units. They have a minimal flow rate to turn on.
Contrary to belief they do not get water to the faucet faster, actually a small amount longer. On has the added wait of the burner to ignite and warm up the heat exchanger.
They are expensive for the good ones. They normally need a larger gas line and in some homes this is real expensive to install. The stainless vent pipe is expensive.
And to think I used to recommend these units.
I would recommend looking at a unit such as a Phoenix ( there are other companies). This type of unit is 90%+ AFUE. They have a high recovery rate. They do require a large gas line and are expensive. The up side is they can reduce the cost of heating water about 30-40%. In most parts of the world where the heating load is not to big they can also heat the home.
The older style of tankless I used to have would shut off on the low pressure of our water pump, ever take a shower from Michigan well water in the winter? I would hope the newer units are better.
Q: What happens when half a tank is used up? Does ice cold water rush in and cool everything down? Is it thus better to gang two together somehow to have the 2nd take over when the first is refilling? A: Ice water will not rush in. The way the two tanks in series works is. The cold water is plumbed into the cold inlet of the first water heater. The hot outlet from the first water heater is plumbed into the cold of the second water heater. The hot outlet of the second goes to the hot water to the house. When the faucet is turned on the cold water immediately starts flowing into the first tank and hot water from the first tank goes to the second tank. As the first tank cools down the burner (assuming gas) turns on and heats the water in the first tank. If the rate of water used is higher than the first tank can heat then cooler water enters the second tank. The burner of the second tank will turn on once nit is cooled past its set point. If enough water is run at a rate high enough then the outlet temperature will decrease from the second tank
Q: Cold water sinks so it pushes the hot water up, although you will get some "warm" water before cold as the hot water runs out.
A: Cold water will sink but... In a water heater there is a dip tube and water is directed to the bottom of the tank when entering.
Q: They say tankless is 80% more efficient than an electric tank. That one is more expensive, but it recoupes in cost in two to three years.
A; are we comparing electric to gas? If not and your are going to put a tankless electric water heater in that will supply enough flow rate... wait till you get a price on a electric service and wiring to handle this type of unit (OUCH).
Q: Spare us the tankless marketing bullship. Standard water heaters DO NOT run constantly. They are well insulated and have a large thermal mass of water inside.
A: I would question well insulated. The temperature difference is greater from the inside of a water heater to the space it is installed in. We put R-30, 38, 50 in our attics and maybe R-15-20 in water heaters. Has anyone ever looked at the vent pipe temperature when the unit is not running (nice and warm). Or the temperature of the hot and cold pipe when no water is being used. And guess what there is almost nothing that meets code we can insulate the most important two pieces of pipes in the DHW system. Code requires 3 inches minimal for combustible for standard vent and fiberglass and foam will not meet this requirement.
The amount of thermal mass has nothing to do with the loss from the tank. Heat loss by conduction is Q=U * A * Delta T * H (Q is the amount of BTU's, U = 1/R-value, A = Area, Delta T= temperature difference, H = hours). Heat loss by radiation is determined by the surface temperature, texture and emissivity. Convection, is based on the surcace temperature, the temperature of the air around the tank and the amount of the insulating value of the air film against the tank.
Q: Oil fired tankless is the way to go. All the hot water you want, never run out and it stops running just as soon as you cut off the faucet. I know because I had one.
A: I do not know the cost of gas vs. oil in your area. Assuming oil at $3.00 per gallon and gas at $2.00 per therm (100,000btu) and both units at 90% AFUE. The cost per million BTU's for oil is $31.97 and for gas $22.22. I would think gas is less than $2.00 per therm, I've never seen it that high, Oil (anyone know how much per gallon). And Oil is unlikely 90% efficient.
What kind of oil unit do you have that shuts off when the faucet is shut off, sounds like a tankless unit, I was not aware of such type of unit.
Q: and the tankless boys can stick them. I like HOT water. Not lukewarm water. A: A properly sized tankless water heater can give you scalding water.
I try to deal in facts AndyEnergy Residential energy consultant
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NO tankless will give 140 - 160 degree water at full flow. And especially when the incoming water is 36-38 degrees. So Stick your tankless.
s
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Remember that other thread about microwaves where people gave you shit for your opinion about NO NEVER NO HOW put a microwave above a stove? Remember how you said it was just your opinion and you didn't really care what other people did? This is like that. You've made you opinion known, you have, let's say singular, requirements in what constitutes hot water, that nobody else shares, so why are you beating a dead horse?
Here, I'll make you feel better.
You're doing the right thing.
For you.
Just nobody else.
And, by the way, where in Alaska do you live that they didn't bury your water line much below the frost line?
R
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Sorry, wasn't me on the microwave thing. keep looking.
s
wrote in message

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Oops. My mistake. I'll edit and correct it so it applies to you. Here goes:
You've made your opinion known, you have, let's say singular, requirements in what constitutes hot water, that nobody else shares, so why are you beating a dead horse?
Here, I'll make you feel better.
You're doing the right thing.
For you.
Just nobody else.
And, by the way, where in Alaska do you live that they didn't bury your water line much below the frost line?
There. That's better. Sorry for the mix up. ;)
R
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I live in the kansas city area. most the lines are between 28 and 36 inches. My incoming is about 36 degrees in january. I only know this because i have a darkroom, and it is sometimes hard to temper water to 100 degrees for hours on end.
s
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message

I live in Shawnee
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with a tankless you would have no issues "Tempering" water to 136 , it might even helpfully [for us ] ruin the film, why even bother with film these days, what a waste it is and always has been , Film.
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To any who might still have this complete thread. After the first couple of days, I have been deleting them unread. How long has it gotten by now?
message wrote in

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'till now and forever.
s

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Barker the PUZTS , can you shower at over 110, or even 105, gee you can get a tankless Takagi to kill you rated at 170- 180 f output on ITS SETTING, its stupid putzes like you that are so simple to put down as cranks-phonys- shit heads. , My puny 460$ Bosch 117000 btu heats my incomming 35f to a hot shower without even being on high, I mean, you dumb ass, its rated 90f rise, and I dont use or need it, nobody does for a dam shower. At least DAM freakin idiots like you could read Spec Manuals online, but of course, Hillary ran a guantlett of sniper fire, on VIDEO, as she walked with the kids, and some morons still believe that crap.
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ransley sure rants a lot, i didnt know they let folks like him have internet access? perhaps he is using it at the nursing station? they really should be more careful at mental hospitals......... inmates err patients might be hazardous..............
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