TV legal ad focused on table saw injuries

[BillinGA]

While watching Delta Force for the 23rd time, I saw an ad from a law firm going after table saw manufacturers. They showed injuries such as missing digits and nasty cuts with many stitches...the narrative from a pretty blon de that said manufacturers did not want you to know there were preventativ e measures available and these saw companies could be held accountable for your injuries. They showed and named the only saw I am aware of that will p revent many of these injuries. It may be just me but it seems like a suitab le comparison would be going after an automaker that did not provide airbag s before they were required by law. I guess miter saws are next. Should hav e seen this coming when McDonalds was successfully sued for selling hot cof fee. I am aware of the argument that a brake cartridge is a small price to pay for safety but wonder if other woodworkers don't share my opinion that safe operation of any saw is the responsibility of the operator, no matter when their device was made and sold. Certainly no slap at SawStop...wish I had one. Wish I had a lot of new tools.

[knuttle]

as made and sold. Certainly no slap at SawStop...wish I had one. Wish I had a lot of new tools.

It is my opinion that the only device that will totally prevent injuries is the blob that sits in the middle of your shoulder. Even with the latest technology there will be accidents. To paraphrase Smokey the Bear. "Only you can prevent accidents."

A great example of this is the automobile. If you look at the last 50 years, and look at all of the safety items placed on autos, there should be no accidents or deaths today, or at least it should be less that

0.000001%

Every campaign to add some safety device to an auto said it would lower the death/accident rate by 10% With the hundreds of items added there are essentially no death/accident.

It does not matter what you do to a device to make it safe there will always be someone who figures out a way to use it to create an injury or death.

Have I ever been hurt on a table saw? Yes I did something absolutely stupid and then followed up with some as stupid to correct the problem.

I was ripping a piece of 1X4 to fit under a mirror. My first stupid mistake was to set the out-feed feather board to the width that I wanted to cut, not the to the width of the board I was cutting.

The second stupid mistake was to try to readjust without turning the saw off

Fortunately it only slice the end of the finger, and I lost nothing physical. It would have been significantly different if I had not made the rest of the set up with safety in mind.

[none]

On Wed, 07 May 2014 07:19:01 -0400, knuttle

I'd suggest you're reading it wrong. A seatbelt for example, would lower the death rate well more than 10% from being thrown out of the vehicle or flattening onto the steering wheel. A side air would lower death and injury from being broadsided. No safety device is going to lower all types of injuries. But, it's shear lunacy to suggest that most safety devices are a waste of time. Hell, a brake light is a safety device. Are you claiming they're a useless safety addition?

Just like your safety equipped tablesaw which isn't going to eliminate all injuries, but it has an excellent chance of eliminating the most common serious injury.

[Puckdropper]

knuttle wrote in news:lkd4rc$br4$ [e-mail]:

*snip*

Let's say you notice a cut starting to "go bad." What should you be looking for in order to safely stop the cut/saw? Is it ever safe to completely let go of the workpiece while the blade is still in it?

I realize there's a large number of possible scenarios, but let's focus on just a few:

1. A large workpiece (like plywood) completely covers access to the switch, so shutting the saw off mid-cut requires ducking under it.
2. A long workpiece begins to close on the blade, requiring reaching over the piece to hit the switch. (Avoidance would include using a splitter/riving knife and not placing the work between you and the switch.)
3. A feather board is set improperly and will not allow the work to pass. The error is not realized until after the work has been introduced to the blade.

Puckdropper

[John Grossbohlin]

Table saws could be the nose under the tent for the lawyers... if they enjoy success there other power tools will join the party. In the future I can see:

A lock-out device on table saws that will not allow them to start if there is no fence or miter gauge installed (the flooring guys would hate that and other fixtures would be a problem without corresponding sensors (e.g., sleds, tenonning jigs)). A lock-out device on drill presses such that if the work is not clamped down the drill press will not start (I'd be surprised if anyone "always" clamps the work down). A lock-out device on bandsaws such that if the space between the upper blade guide and the wood exceeds say 1/4" the saw will not start. A laser activated kill switch with brake on jointers if your hands get within say 3" of the knives (a brake on a fly wheel like a chainsaw... non-destructive unlike SawStop). Etc. I'm sure we can all think of various tools and "dangerous" operator practices that could be technologized to make them "safe," and thus become retro-active targets for the lawyers.

I'd think chainsaws would be the most dangerous power tool out there... perhaps the day will come that a mandatory training and certification class is required to buy or operate one... YouTube is full of good examples of bad practices and older saws that lack all the "modern" safety devices could be easy targets.

Ugh... the Mommy State is to be dreaded...

[woodchucker]

All of those are resolvable by making one of those PVC frames that allow you to hit it with your foot from anywhere and shut the saw.

But that leaves you unbalanced. It may wind up getting hit inadvertently while passing a piece through making the second start up dangerous.

[Leon]

Stop all movement and then try to shut off the saw with out moving the work.

Full 3/4" sheets I try to break up with my track saw or have my wife on hand to turn the TS on and off and to help me keep the edge against the fence. Typically the work is too heavy to cause a serious kickback should you bind the blade. the blase most often creates a burned wider kerf. IME the small pieces are the ones that can cause the most harm.

Not sure what you are describing here but typically the switch is on the left side of the blade. The work is always between me and the fence.

Some thing to consider about the safest place to be during a cut. I know a lot of people that want to use the fence to help protect so they stand with the fence between them and the work. IMHO it is far better to stand in a position that affords you maximum control over the cut vs one that may not necessarily be ad protective as you think.

If the board takes flight no where is necessarily a safe place to be.

You need to plan your feather board placement better. The feather board should not allow a start of a cut at all if properly placed, meaning the feather board is always in front of the blade.

[-MIKE-]

I believe that sentence should stop there. Out-feed feather boards are dangerous, period.

[Scott Lurndal]

Um, it's the lawyers pushing this (and their former lawyer colleagues in various public offices), not the "state".

Regardless, it's all pretty silly, and nobody is talking about banning all the power tools on the secondary market, are they?

Just look at all the houston-based law-firms advertising class action suits on TV (asbestos, birth control pills, vaginal mesh, ad infinitum). Quite bothersome and a good reason to have a Tivo or equivalent that allows commercial skipping.

The eastern district of texas is quite well known for gullible juries; which is what makes it the preferred venue for patent trolls and class actions.

[John Grossbohlin]

The problem is the legal challenges eventually turn into laws or bureaucratic regulations.... OSHA, CPSC...

[Swingman]

Witness the current texting/driving issue. Idiots feel safer when in their padded, mobile cocoon; and when people feel safer they take more chances, so the total level of actual safety remains relatively constant.

[Swingman]

Bzzzt ...

"United States District Court for the Eastern District of Texas"

This is a FEDERAL court overseen by a FEDERAL judge, not a TEXAS court.

The Feds are the ones who f***ed up the patent system to start with.

... and that's "Texas", with a capital "T"! ;)

[Leon]

Actually there is an instance when they are quite useful, If you are plowing a grove and or not making a through cut.

I do this all the time when cutting groves for drawer bottoms.

Anything "through" should not have an out feed feather board.

And I sit here typing this while listening to the flooring guys cutting the hickory wood treads for our stairs using a bench top Skil TS with out benefit of miter gauge or rip fence. They have insurance.

[-MIKE-]

Yes, of course. That was the context of the conversation... he said ripping.

I believe those thing are responsible for probably 90% of TS accidents. I was helping a friend finish out his studio space and his other friend was doing most of the work with his own power tools. He had one of those Skils, which should never be referred to as table saws... they are so freakin tiny. Anyway, no guard, no miter gauge, no splitter, and the thing was sitting directly on a smooth concrete floor. I made one cut on the thing while experiencing an instant cold sweat and that was my last cut with it. I refused to do any more.

I told my friend that this guy was going to hurt himself, not a matter of if, but when. He called me about 6 months later to say the guy was in the hospital recovering from reconstructive surgery on his hand.

[Baxter]

BillinGA wrote in news: [e-mail]:

I think there's other methods to improve Table saw safety without destroying the blade. How about a sensor (like on Saw Stop) that releases a latch on the arbor and drops the blade below the table top? Pulls the blade away from your finger/hand/etc, turns off the saw, doesn't destroy the blade - all you do is reset the latch.

[Scott Lurndal]

Surely they don't import the jurors, who decide the case, from outside the eastern district of texas?

[Baxter]

"Mike Marlow" wrote in news:lkdm0i$b7h$1 @dont-email.me:

I don't think that's the case - I find a featherboard mounted vertically on the fence works fine on outfeed. Featherboard equivalents mounted on riving knife are common. etc.

Mounting featherboard horizontally on saw table at outfeed is asking for trouble/injury.

[-MIKE-]

Can we please read the entire posts in a thread and make sure we understand the context before replying? I know it's a lot to ask. The guy said he was setting it to the width. That's not vertical.

[Larry Blanchard]

Anytime I'm ripping I use the wheeled hold-downs and anti-kickback devices. While it's still not the safest thing to do, I can usually let go of the wood and the wheels will hold it down and against the fence. Then I can turn off the saw and fix the problem. Here's a link to the ones I use:

[Ed Pawlowski]

You should start working on it. I imagine the SawStop people tried to make something that does not destroy the blade. Maybe you will do better and make a fortune.