On 31 Jul 2003 07:46:03 GMT, email@example.com (Charlie Self)
This has been chewed over a number of times on
rec.metalworking. My slant on it would be to allow anyone with
a CCW permit to pack on the plane. It would increase the hazard
level for the hijackers quite a bit...they really WOULD have no
idea who was armed and who was not, and, at least in theory
it would mean that the folks that were armed had at least
It is a tough question, but, for me, I always fall
on the side of laxer regulations, simply because I see America
sliding slowly towards the point that we are ALL sheep living
in Camp X-Ray, and, for me, that is a VERY bad thing.
The idea that the government is "mommy and daddy" and
should protect us to the point that we are all passive toddlers
is becoming more widespread, and, is one of the signs that America
may well be on the road of decadence and rot that has brought down
other great civilizations. Actually, when considering National
Security, I think that we could do better to simply start requiring
that every citizen that graduates from high school (or hits the age
of 18) serve in the military for a couple of years. It would
probably do more for us than ALL the smoke, mirrors and handwaving of
the Department of Homeland Security.
As for the dangers to the plane...as far as I can tell, they
are overrated, as we have a number of examples of planes that have
lost LARGE chunks of fuselage and still landed successfully. A few
bullet holes are unlikely to cause enough damage to be serious.
Of course, there is always the chance that control lines, etc,
might be hit...but, it is my understanding that these tend to run
through the belly of the machine, and in most cases, the bullets
will be going down the LENGTH of the cabin. Remember that if
my previous suggestion of military service were implimented,
within a few years, every person on the plane would have been trained
to use a firearm properly.
Life is a dangerous occupation, and, we can NEVER be
truly safe. I think the individual danger of a few folks packing
on a plane is far less than the dangers involved for the folks
ON the plane and on the ground if it were to get hijacked and used as
Ok. so . . . .
The aircraft crashes into something large, expensive, and heavily
populated if the terrorists manage to take control. Not good.
Or the aircraft has explosive decompression and manages to get below
FL 180 before all the geese drop dead, and lands on a _runway_.
Think I'll take the latter scenario.
the dash plumber at mindspring dot com
Pick any situation and someone somewhere will come up with a reason
not to do X.
Airline travel is not safer than before 9/11, and it is getting worse.
Most folks probably missed the 'news' that TSA pulled ALL the sky
marshalls off cross-country flights effective tomorrow. That was on
Tuesday. Today TSA says the sky marshalls are not being pulled,
they're going to do something else to hide the $900 million hole in
their budget. This makes the second year of TSAs existence and the
second year they're run flat out of money half-way through the year.
In a day and age when the security toads confiscate rifles from GI Joe
the CMH (Joe Foss, before his death), and steal expensive sunglasses
from vic. . . persons being screened (this week, Atlanta, Hartsfield;
TSA droid was nephew of Atlanta Chief of Police, droid fired, no
charges) it ought to be readily apparent that TSA et al have no idea
of how to make the airlines safe/secure.
If it's all the same to you, I druther fly on an airliner where at
least the _possibility_ of armed passengers and flight crew exists, as
opposed to a TSA-guaranteed totally unarmed and utterly defenseless
load of fare-paying passengers and crew.
One is a known quantity, thanks to TSA, and it's right up the
The other is an unknown, and no right-thinking terrorist is going to
try for an airliner where the odds are likely to be stacked against
him. He'll go for the sure thing or he'll just bide his time until a
sure thing comes along.
Thanks to TSA, there are plenty of sure things for the terrorists to
the dash plumber at mindspring dot com
Greetings and Salutations....
On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:13:26 -0400, Fred McClellan
And the REALLY obscene thing that was reported yesterday from
the Atlanta Airport. One of the passengers passing through had a
triangular folded American Flag, from a military funeral. Not only
did the droid insist on unfolding it, but, apparently feld that
the empty brass folded into it was a terroristic weapon, so, told
the person that they had a choice...they could take the flag without
the brass, or they could take the flag and the brass and go to Jail.
Now...for me...I would have gone to jail, and then ended up retiring
on the proceeds of the lawsuit.
There are not too many things that just get on my last nerve,
but this, I find, is one of them. Here is the flag, that had covered
the coffin of a military veteran, and has in it the symbols of the
respect that America has for that person's sacrifice. Then, we
see some Herbert not only insisting that it be casually unfolded at
a security station, but, then going ballistic over some harmless
pieces of brass.
It is a symbol of all that is bad about the whold "Airline
Oh, yea...apparently the flag HAD gone through other
security stations, with no problems, and, so far, the authorities at
the airport are keeping mum about the whole thing. Probably a good
thing, though, as it would be really hard for them to find anything
to say that would not just make the situation worse.
*smile*..."takes one to know one" springs to mind
right off.... While not a fanatic about (I DO know it was
a television show), I did enjoy the "cowboys in space" show
of the original series. Of course, being a bit too rebellious
myself, I enjoyed both the anarchy of the episode. I also
was bright enough to take a lesson from the dangers of being
seduced by a bright and shiny utopia in front of me.
One of the things that I enjoy about today's reality
is the LARGE number of magical machines that are normal reality
now that appeared as stage props in the original series. Now
if they would only bring back the uniforms (*BSEG*), life would
be better indeed.
Absolutely ridiculous idea. A good number of hijackers these days are
fanatics. What makes you think for one second that all passengers having
weapons would deter them? They're ready to die and take as many people as
possible with them. Starting a gunfight in a pressured cabin would
accomplish that in a second and it would only take one hijacker or even a
passenger making a mistake to start it. The airline industry would grind to
halt. Instead of a group of fanatical hijackers taking over a flight, it
would only take one per flight to destroy the entire plane and you'd have to
kiss the airline industry goodbye. At best, you're completely brain-dead.
Some are, some aren't. There's a fair amount of evidence to suggest that most
of the September 11th hijackers didn't realize they were going to die that day.
Apparently not everybody was in on the *total* plan.
I also point out that most Palestinian terrorists target unarmed civilians. If
they truly didn't care, they'd take on more armed targets.
Yassir Arafat himself said he wanted to become a martyr back when his
headquarters was being occupied by Israelis. If that were really true, all he
had to do was step out into the hall. It didn't happen.
I don't believe that all of these guys are particularly brave. Some are, some
Ad hominem attacks don't strengthen your position. Your conclusions are based
on faulty information. Jet aircraft will not fall out of the sky because of a
few holes in the skin. I seem to recall an Aloha Airline flight that made it
safely onto the ground with a significant amount of airframe peeled off.... and
that was after an explosive decompression. Most airframes will just leak after
being punctured by bullets.
In WWII, the B-29 Superfortress was pressurized. No doubt the cabins were holed
quite frequently by flak or other aircraft. It trook significant battle damage
to bring one down. Admittedly, the modern airliner isn't built to the same
standard as a bomber, but it's still damned tough. And the same people build
them.... (If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going!)
Very few *intend* to die, but it only takes one to make it happen. Dieing is
usually a last resort, but anybody who resorts to it realizes that it could
happen. Doesn't stop them much does it?
Targets of opportunity with the least backlash are always the first choice,
if those easy choices disappear, do you really think they'll stop? The
Israeli army is fully armed and never had any problem brandishing their
firepower. Strange that terrorist attacks still happened quite frequently
against soldiers too don't you think? Kind of shoots down your statement in
Yup. And you'd be prepared to take that chance eh?
Again, you'd be prepared to take that chance on a regular basis? Fly much
Mortimer? The world you appear to be supporting is completely foreign to my
sense of safety as it exists in our society. I hope yours never comes to
Actually, it does. How many skyjackings have there been in this country since
9/11? I can't recall any.
It happens much more often against civilians. If anything, that strengthens my
argument. There's always some nutcase in that part of the world willing to
claim his virgins, but there's even more who are afraid to meet Allah when push
comes to shove.
>> I don't believe that all of these guys are particularly brave. Some
Yes. The odds are very much in my favor.
I don't fly as much as I once did. I was a commercial pilot once (now I have
diabetes). In any case, I don't plan my day around the possibility that the sky
might fall. My sense of security is quite comfortable.
I lock the doors to my house and car; I don't visit unsafe areas; I leave my
neighbors alone; I keep guns in both my home and vehicle (and have a carry
permit for them). Beyond that, I've observed the security measures that are now
in place at our nation's airports. They are far from perfect, but also far from
what they were before 9/11. Finally, I believe in the solution to pollution is
dilution. In other words, the chances of hijackers boarding my flight are
probably less than me being struck by lightning. I refuse to live my life in
fear. I've taken the prudent measures I think I should and refuse to worry
about what I can't control. So, yes, I feel safe.
I love the idea, but in practice, forget it. Some of the "willing" would
probably be people who already know how to use a gun, but others will be the
ones who have no skill, but plenty of bravado. Add a couple of cocktails to
those amateur brains and you've got a circus.
While at the shooting range, I've noticed that when shooters miss the
bullseye, they often miss by a LOT - sometimes a foot or two. That's way too
far off for shooting in a crowd.
After further reflection, I have to agree with you. Some guys would not
present a problem at all, guys like my BIL (ex-Navy). Pistol practice for Mike
means using 50-foot targets on a hundred *yard* range and putting five out of
five in the 10-ring.
Then there's the guy I saw last fall while I was sighting in my scoped 12ga
shotgun getting ready for deer season. I was firing three-shot groups that you
could cover with a quarter. About the time I finished up, the guy one lane
over from me brought his target back in, looked at it, then showed it to me
and said proudly "There! I guess that oughta be good enough to kill a deer!"
He'd fired about 30 rounds at a silhouette target from fifty feet away. No two
rounds were within two inches of each other, or of the bulls-eye. At least
half a dozen rounds hadn't even hit the silhouette. I hope this guy never even
*sees* a deer in the woods. And I don't like the idea of him being on an
airliner, armed, any better.
I suspect there are three like him for every one like my brother-in-law.
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW
The times I've seen that, it was either the shooters first day or the shooter
was an LEO trying to get ready for his/her semi-annual qualification.
My 10 year old daughter shoots her gun more often than a lot of cops do.
She's now working on Light Rifle Expert.
ARM - member Ohioans For Concealed Carry http://www.ofcc.net /
You have to differentiate between our right to carry weapons, and our
ability to use them safely. When's the last time you visited an emergency
room on a summer weekend? They're mostly occupied with morons who've hacked
off fingers or limbs with power tools and yard equipment. Lots of people
aren't qualified to operate a toaster, much less a motor vehicle or a hedge
trimmer. And, if you spend some time reading messages in rec.guns (the
newsgroup), you'll see plenty of instances of morons causing gun accidents.
They're mostly non-fatal, but they still happen. Here in upstate NY, each
hunting season brings at least a half dozen accidental shootings.
If by "trusted", you mean our ability to make the decision to use force
responsibly.....maybe. I carry a pistol regularly, but I am keenly aware of
the point where my temper reaches its limits.
Ah, brings back memories of Mike Royko's column with
bizarre hunting accidents. I still laugh when I think about
the guy who shot his buddy in the hand when he put it on
the side of a tree. "It looked like a squirrel" was the reason
the shooter gave. Fabulous.
HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.