OT: WalMart Women in Playboy

[George]

Unless it's an antireligious one preaching "tolerance."

[George]

Wasn't the contract a no-strike contract? Wasn't the condition of return abiding by the no-strike rule?

Does the employer have all the obligations, and the employee only privileges?

I can remember some "due regard" days back then.

[Doug Miller]

You mean when Reagan *legally* fired workers who participated in an *illegal* strike. I'm sure this was just an oversight on your part.

The *law* prohibited the ATCs from going on strike. It was the ATCs who refused to act in accord with the law.

-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?

[LRod]

What contract? There was no contract. That's what we were negotiating and the FAA dug in their heels.

None of the ones who were fired (except those who won appeals on procedural error, like me) were given the opportunity to go back until about 1997. That was a 16 year sentence. Murderers get out serving less time than that.

What does that mean? Were you there? The employer has the obligation to negotiate in good faith. They didn't. So does the employee. They did.

Whatever that means. But I don't think you were there.

LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

[Mark]

And if aircraft had augured we know who would have painted as the murderers.

That's obtuse.

I wasn't there but I watched it happen.

Any way you cut it the Reagan Administrations actions were highly inappropriate.

The potential result of this action could have been highly fatal. Which only proves how inappropriate the action was.

It should be noted there are government employees in unions. Why not the ATCs? Less important positions have collective bargaining.

In the least the Reagan Administration used union busting tactics. Last I knew that wasn't legal.

[LRod]

No doubt about it.

I agree, and it wasn't my statement.

I was. but there's been another poster in this thread that I was responding to that I think you're confusing with me.

There was. PATCO was the union at the time. And we had collective bargaining. During the period (post 3 Aug 81) after which PATCO was decertified (I think that happened around November) until sometime in

1982 or 83, there was no union. Ultimately, a new one was formed, NATCA, which is still in place.

How ironic that the actions of the government created the necessity of another controllers union so soon after 3 Aug 81.

They kept trying to recruit me but I told them that although I was extremely sympathetic to their goals, I couldn't in good conscience join a labor organization whose members had crossed my picket line.

Apparently it is if you can get away with it. And because of 3 Aug 81, a lot of companies have resorted to that very thing. Continental Airlines comes immediately to mind. So does Hormel. It's like the

1880s all over again.

LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

[George]

"Due regard"allows flight outside ATC coverage. It's a special VFR.

An ARTCC type would have known.

How about MARSA?

[Kevin Craig]

Isn't it odd how a man attempting to be a moral example, but who doesn't meet your idea of what "moral" should be, is a hypocrite? And how a man who publicly displays the morals of a tomcat is accepted because he has made no pretense at morality?

"Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue."

- La Rochefoucauld 1613-1680

Kevin

[LRod]

This 30 year ARTCC type with some time in a TRACON, too, has never heard of it. Please cite an FAA publication with reference to it. I don't recall ever seeing it in 7110.65 (formerly 7110.9), the Air Traffic Procedures Handbook.

Well, duh. In some facilities there's not a day that goes by that a controller isn't involved with flights using it. That was the case in Jacksonville when I was there. Without thinking at all, I can recall at least 12 military facilites we had in the airspace (NPA, VPS, PAM, NIP/NZC/NRB, NEA, NBC, CHS, MYR, SSC, VAD, DHN, SVN). That doesn't include the various auxiliary fields associated with some of those bases. There were at least three more immediately adjacent (MCO, WRB, SEM). And there were another half dozen that we were affected by, as well (MCF, COF, GSB, NKT, FBG, MGE/NCQ).

In Chicago we didn't encounter it as much. There was nowhere near the military use of airspace in ZAU as there is in other places. A couple of ANG bases, a couple of MOAs, and a refueling track or two. Way too much air carrier to deal with a lot of military ops.

LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

[V.E. Dorn]

Yep, but I don't think it's that odd. That's why we have no real problem accept when someone like Jerry Falwell does the same thing he has been preaching against for years. When you get on a soapbox and tell the rest of us how we should live our lives and then don't follow your own example, that is hypocracy.

djd

[Swingman]

Not if you know the definition of "hypocrisy".

[Mark]

I guess my formatting wasn't as clean as it could have been.

[LRod]

I don't know what you mean by "below ATC coverage." You might mean radar coverage, or you might mean uncontrolled airspace. In the first case, you either file IFR, VFR, or ask for Special VFR. There's no other type. Radar isn't required for any of them.

In the case of uncontrolled airspace, there's nothing to file, since you couldn't get a clearance anyway. ATC clearances are only good in controlled airspace.

You sound like you might be describing military operations, but even military controllers use 7110.65. There may be additional military procedures in effect locally, but they wouldn't relate to basic ATC.

For example, a military approach control (RATCC, for example) adjacent to a MOA, Warning Area, etc., might have a local procedure to facilitate operations directly into that area without IFR clearance (NBC and NKT are a couple of places that come to mind), but there's no language for that operation other than IFR, VFR, or Special VFR in the ATP.

In any event, "due regard" is not a standard FAA operation that would be known to any "ARTCC type."

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

[George]

No reference on the shelf any more, hated flying then and now, and memory won't serve for numbers, but as we departed below ATC coverage, even where there were oceanic, we filed "due regard" which was for the controllers, the equivalent of MARSA, to carry out operations. Used it in the strike days to get them off the hook, too.

Now check your memory bank and discover that labor law provides for the termination of those ignoring a back-to work order, and replacement of workers after a rejection of a final management offer. I know that sympathy for management is nonexistent, but it would not be "bargaining," but extortion if they were denied such recourse.

[Trent©]

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

[Trent©]

You find that unusual? lol

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

[Trent©]

Its interesting that you would talk about her that way.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

[Trent©]

What kind of work do you do, Mike?

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

[Trent©]

I think most...if not all...employers have that policy.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

[Trent©]

Don't you think Wal-Mart has things like fork lifts?...or shipping docks?...or other dangerous activities?

I think yer still livin' in the dark ages, Charlie. Drinking on the job...or bringing it TO the job...is ALWAYS dangerous.

I doubt if there are any companies where this is not prohibited.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!