Hand plane - can you REALLY joint a perfectly straight edge?

[Bay Area Dave]

I was thinking about the difference between a jointer (powered) and a plane. A jointer has the outfeed table level with the blade so that as the work passes over the blade and onto the outfeed table, if the operator uses good technique to keep the board flat on the outfeed table, the board pretty much has to come out FLAT.

A hand plane on the other hand isn't built that way. It has a projecting blade. So unless the sole of the plane is extraordinarily long, how can you get a perfectly machined straight board? Just for grins, I was using a tiny hand plane to plane the edge of a board and found that no matter how hard I tried, the small plane "unflattened" the straight edge I started with. The more passes, the worse it got. How long of a plane do you need to get a perfectly flat result on say a 2' board? a 6' board? Is it MOSTLY technique, or do you have to have a reference straight edge and keep checking your work constantly as you plane? OR do you just take a few light passes over an essentially flat board to start with, and know that it is flat? In other words, when I use the jointer, I KNOW it's flat. I don't have to check it. Can I do the same thing with a plane, or do you have to stop, eyeball it with a reference straight-edge, and then touch it up an little here, a little there?

Lay it on me, WW gods! :)

dave

[Scott Cramer]

On 12 Nov 2003, Bay Area Dave spake unto rec.woodworking:

You are a certifiable idiot.

Why do you think a long plane is called a jointer plane?

[Juergen Hannappel]

[... How is it possible that a hand plane joints? ]

Not because of that question.

Just that a jointer plane is called jointer plane is *not* an explanation of how it works, and it is by no means obvoius that jointing with a jointer plane does work.

[The Guy]

It sounds like you might benefit from a little light reading about the function and use of hangplanes. Taunton Press has a good volume by Garrett Hack titled, The Hand Plane Book (ISBN 1-56158-317-0).

Tim

[Scott Cramer]

On 12 Nov 2003, Juergen Hannappel spake unto rec.woodworking:

You are new here ;-)

For the first part, I agree, the name does not explain the working of a jointer plane.

'Automobile' doesn't tell us anything about internal combustion or differential gearing, however, we understand it to mean a self-propelled vehicle. Nor do we need to understand how it works to know THAT it works.

I will make the huge assumptive leap that a power jointer is called a power jointer because it performs the task performed by its predecessor, the jointer plane. If, by 'jointing', we mean 'truing an edge square to the face of a board', than I think it is indeed obvious that the expected result of using a jointer plane is a squared, true edge.

Forgive my sarcasm in the initial post. BAD's unwillingness to make any effort whatsoever in finding an answer to any question that pops into his head, other than asking someone else to take the trouble, is like a blackberry seed in a wisdom tooth. Not painful, but persisitently annoying.

Scott

[Saudade]

Hmmm..... My teeth must be more sensitive than yours.

:)

[mttt]

Scott - I'm no fan of BAD. But I've wondered the same thing. Especially at the end grain edges.

[Hitch]

Bay Area Dave wrote in news:lLtsb.5929$ [e-mail]:

Read the sources listed below, but short of that:

- jointer planes run 22" to 24" long, generally;

- you can make nice, flat surfaces for joining with them and lots of practice;

- you can use the edge of the plane as your straightedge while planing;

- there are some tricks to creating joinable board edges (e.g., jointing both boards at once to remove one variable in the process).

[George]

Dodging hornets, I'll say that blade exposure can be kept to such a minimum that it just plain (plane) makes no difference at all. The length of the plane sole is important relative to how straight the board is initially, and how impatient the operator, as comparison to a standard allows even a short-soled plane to level observed high spots enough to where its sole will bridge and average the remaining.

Aren't you the same one who was giving me grief a couple months ago when I told you that a jointer could/should be used the same way?

[CW]

Well Dave, it would appear that no one here really knows. Longer planes, since they ride the high points, can not get down into the lows to plane them. So what you end up doing is knocking of those high spots. It still takes a bit of skill but it is easier with a longer plane. I'm not much for explaining things but you probably get the idea.

[Manny Davis]

Scott Cramer wrote in news:Xns943182FB12E43scottcramerfastmailf@24.48.107.54:

But BAD was asking about straightness, not squareness.

[Bay Area Dave]

so there is no point to getting a low angle block plane to take a swipe or two across the edge of a power jointed board to get that sucker dead on flat and smooth? I've read articles stating that the author will power joint a board and then run a plane over it to make the edge even better than what came off the jointer. Does that require a long jointing plane. No other plane will suffice?

If that IS the case, what use will I get out of a $160 Veritas plane?

thanks.

DAVE

Hitch wrote:

[Bay Area Dave]

as usual Scott is worthless at answering any woodworking questions, which is why he is my premier plonkee.

I'm trying to understand the mechanics of planing to understand how I'd get an edge as flat as on a power jointer, using a, say, low angle block plane.

dave

PLEASE try not to quote him... :)

dave

Juergen Hannappel wrote:

[Bay Area Dave]

George,

Not sure as to your last point about the grief, but it's entirely possible. I don't remember the specifics. Right now my take on a jointer is that you get two flat surfaces out of the deal. One edge, one face. Then you go to the TS to true up the other edge. Then you go to the thickness planer to make the untouched face parallel and flat. And to avoid flamers, take some material off both sides of the board, rather than just the side that I mark an 'X' on. :)

My question is more related to starting with a totally flat edge. The idea is that some woodworkers like to run a hand plane over a jointed edge for that "edge" (pun intended) in quality of a glue up joint. So what I want to know is if you are going to just cut a smidge from the edge with a smaller plane, do you end up with a worse edge than if you just rely on a well power jointed edge? Is anyone understanding what I getting at? (Cramer, for god's sake, don't answer, you are just an absolute jerk of grand proportions and I can't imagine why anyone would respond to you).

dave

George wrote:

[Mike in Mystic]

Hi Dave,

You're thinking of the Veritas low-angle SMOOTHING plane, right? (not the block plane as you've referred to in a few other posts in this thread). That's a big difference in how you would use the plane. Neither one of these is meant to be used to joint board edges, at least not ideally.

The best use for the low-angle smoothing plane, IMO, would be to finish smooth the FACES of particularly difficult (i.e. highly figured) pieces. Using the smoothing plane on a board edge is fine, if what you want is a smooth edge. If you start out with a square, flat edge, you should end up with a square, flat and smooth edge. Technique is critical, though.

So, if you were going to edge glue several boards into a panel, there wouldn't be much reason to smooth the edges and the power jointer should do perefectly well at this operation. If you have a door edge, say, that will be visible and you want to give it a final treatment before finishing, then a swipe with the smoothing plane might make sense.

I'm no expert mind, you, but that's how I see it.

Mike

[Bay Area Dave]

[Bannerstone]

Dave,

Length of plane? Depends on how uneven the surface, the further apart the high spots the longer plane you should use. I do all my jointing with a #7 which is around 2' long.

Yes you have to look at your work but not till you're fairly close to being done. You can read the surface by how the plane is performing and the shavings. When you're getting a full width shaving the full length of the board, you're close. You're eye can judge the straightness of the board but you'll need a small square to judge for perpendicular.

A trick I use is to skew my jointer plane slightly so it exagerates how perpendicular the planes is to the work.

David

[George]

If you take the perfect stroke with minimum blade exposure, all's the same.

Maybe someone in the group can help me, but I believe the theory behind it is that you have hardened and burnished your jointed faces, and will get a better glue joint by "opening" the pores. I think it's crap, and glue off the jointer or the TS with a good blade.

You use a plane to do two things, if you're a basic Norm - trim and surface.

[Bay Area Dave]

George,

I'm an agnostic on this issue of which method yields the best joint too! Just 2 days ago I ripped a hunk of face-glued poplar to 1/16" thick, soaked it in water and bent the piece 180 degrees to form a U shaped trough. The Titebond glue held fast in that 1/16" thick piece (there were 2 glue lines in it), even when wet, so I don't know how much better I can get glue to stick! :) But I'm always open to suggestions...except the rude ones from the miscreants.

dave

George wrote:

[larry]

Your jointer works with a circular cutter. Your "straight" edge is actually quite wavy on a glue line level. A jointer plane leaves a smooth and staight surface for edge gluing. It takes a little practise to get right, but it does work. It has for hundreds of years. If it didn't there would be another old tool for the job.