Consumer Product Safety Comm. to discuss proposed SawStop technology safety rule

[George Max]

Reposting a message I found in ABPW:

(FWIW)

[bremen68]

I stopped over at the saw stop site and took a look at their products. Interesting little gizmo, expensive, but very interesting.

I think if you're looking for an absolutely safe saw (from the blade anyway) this puppy just might be the ticket... Though I didn't see saftey bumpers on the corners, soft side cushions on the case, or an airbag type appliance incase of kick backs. And WHAT ABOUT THOSE BLASTED SPINTERS??

Ok I'll be serious for a moment, well as serious as I can be anyway... It looks like somebody put a lot of thought into this and if it works as claimed will save many a person from having to answer questions from their grandkids about why they have to take their shoes off to count to ten. However, with all new technology it's expensive. And anytime you ask a typical woodworker to lay out more cash...Well, let's just say it's not a good thing and leave it at that.

As for mandating that it be installed on all saws. That's an entirely different thing. Now you're encroaching on our rights to injure and maim ourselves in creative and painful ways as we see fit. I agree with everybody above who says "if it's that good a system, it will sell it's self and everybody will install it" The price will come down and like also stated above it will be just like any other feature "standard" on the saws.

Trying to mandate something in the US does tend to raise most folks hackles, we're a bit stiff necked about things when somebody comes up and says "This is how you're gonna do this, by the way you don't have a choice". Even if it's for our own good, we tend to be stuborn types.

I am kinda curious about a few technical aspects of the system. Not everybody keeps their shop in absolute perfect condition, some aren't weather tight, some are damp basements... How does this system handle adverse conditions. If it's relying on monitoring an electrical current through the blade will rust effect it?

What about nails? (I realize we should inspect our wood etc, but it does happen) Will hitting a nail in a piece of wood cause the safety to trip? I'm thinking hitting metal will cause a rather abrupt spike in conductivity and there by blow the stop. A block of aluminum hitting a spinning blade means that blade is toast, at $70 a reload plus $50 (or more) for a new blade, that's an expensive mistake. Does the saw function if you don't reload the cartridge?

For industry I'm thinking they're doomed to have to incorporate it. Insurance companies will make it happen if nobody else does. As with all things it will eventually trickle down to consumer level products. But just like the gaurds that are supposed to be on our saws now, how many are actually in place? I think that that will be the fate of this device as well for most of them.

My humbe two pennies worth of rambling... Take it as you will. :-)

[R. Pierce Butler]

George Max wrote in news: [e-mail]:

I find the numbers a bit hard to believe. How many table saw users are there? I can't find a single person at work that owns one.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

I work for a small company (20 people) and there are at least four of us that have a table saw. My neighbor across the street has one, as does the neighbor next door. Given that percentage, with 300 million people in the US, that is one hell of a lot of saws. I did see the number of injuries someplace other that Saw Stop too, but I don't recall where it was.

[mike]

I respect the technology and I believe that the SawStop is an excellant product. I do not like the fact that the manufacture is trying to force his product down my throat. I want to make the buying decision, not being forced by some lawyer!

I can not believe his mission in life is to make all of us woodworkers safe, but to line his own pockets!

Mike

[sweetsawdust]

[Upscale]

And what you prefer to believe has been the subject of lively debate for some time. However, there's always two sides to every story and I believe there is some substance to the debate that the bulk of other tablesaw manufacturers banded together to "slow" this technology.

Either way, it's a good technology and if money was no object for people, I think this technology would not be receiving near as many negative comments that it has.

[Upscale]

Well, if the cost of the Sawstop prevented you from buying one, you'd have been prevented from experiencing all of those klutz injuries and saved that

5 minutes. Think of it. 52 weeks x 5 minutes = over 4 hours. Think of the money you could save then? :)

[R. Pierce Butler]

"mike" wrote in news:1157515777.972488.27840 @h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

I agree with you Mike. there comes a point in time when good common sense and a little training goes a long way.

My father operated a Delta Unisaw for decades and never once had an injury and he operated it as part of his full time job. I have operated the same saw for many years as a hobbyist and never once had an injury. Safety features on the saw? None at all. The saw was stripped of the blade guard long before I was born. My father taught me to use the Unisaw and maybe that is what keeps my digits attached.

The scariest saw in my shop? The band saw. My sons and I agree on that. The one that will maim the quickest? The table saw of course. The tool most likely to injure you? The drill press. The safest saw in the shop? The scroll saw.

[Leuf]

What you need is my new IdiotSaw. We've thoughtfully silkscreened "You're an idiot" on all sides of the base to save you valuable time.

Look for our future product that will audibly berate you whenever a loud noise is detected. Accepting preorders now! You must be at least 18 to order.

-Leuf

[David]

I've lurked long enough. . . .

I agree with almost everyone above - that this is a great safety feature, yet that it shouldn't be forced on individuals. I agree that the company's goal is to line their pockets, but I can't begrudge someone a few bucks for what can save a lot of grief.

I am a hand surgeon in a suburb west of Cleveland, and have seen a minimum 2-3 woodworking injuries a week over the last 15 years, many of which end up in the OR. They range from close calls and nicked nails, to devastating life changing and career ending injuries. Almost everyone one of them is a table saw related injury (with a smattering of chop saws, circular saws, drills, and the occasional router or jointer), and every injury of significance involves contact with a moving (under power or coasting) blade. While most admittedly represent some error in judgment (poor outfeed support, small workpiece, blocking kickback, fatigue, lapse of concentration, etc.), they happen to the experienced woodworkers probably more often than to the inexperienced.

The best safety remains the guard and splitter (I'm ready for the assault! - but I've still NEVER seen a table saw injury that needed to see me when the guard was in place), but for people who feel better without it, this could be a great thing. (Although even SawStop recommends the guard and riving knife.)

Twenty (maybe 10?) years from now, some variation of this technology will be as standard as the on-off switch, at least in the industrial environment, and yes, it will likely be legislated. As individual woodworkers today, our best bet is to learn the technologies and encourage them, in the hope that, as Upscale said, the negative impressions will fade away when the cost decreases.

David S.

sweetsawdust wrote:

[Chip Chester]

You folks ready for the other shoe to drop? I predict that, once SawStop-type products are mandated, it will become either flat-out illegal to resell old tablesaws (Unisaws, etc.) that don't have that feature, or corporate lawyers will recommend scrapping them out, rather than exposing themselves to that liability. I also predict a sharp near-term rise in the price of Old Iron, thereby preventing me from ever being able to afford even a used one. (However, I might buy a SawStop for the local school, and donate it in exchange for their Unisaur, if I can write off the difference...)

(Oh, and Dr. Dave -- I'm amazed you see that stuff and still do woodworking... Nothing like a constant reminder, huh?)

"Chip"

[R. Pierce Butler]

"Chip Chester" wrote in news:DttLg.98$ [e-mail]:

There is only one problem with the sawstop system. In the even of contact with a finger it throws a chunk of aluminum into the teeth of the blade. I wonder how many ruined blades there will be once people get really careless. Then when they move from a Sawstop to a "unsafe" saw then you can really watch the digits fly.

[dingbat]

I'm in Europe, where SawStop is unheard of and good guards and splitters are standard. You have to be using quite old equipment to not have both, and even then most have been retrofitted. Both are mandatory for commercial machines (although you're allowed to remove guards where appropriate for a particular operation)

So why not follow Europe ? Seems like a sensible level of protection and regulation.

[B A R R Y]

Me either.

Now that SS has actual saws for sale, the market should decide if the brake should be on all saws. If SawStop makes a mint, the other manufacturers will have to either come up with a comparable feature, or license it from SS.

If it's mandated on new saws, say buh-bye! to $400 table saws, like the Bosch, Rigid, or Grizzly. Think of what it will do to the used table saw market for non-commercial users!

[Jim Northey]

I wonder how this thing will work with a dado blade. Jim

[B A R R Y]

SawStop has a special cartridge for dado blades.

[Dave Hall]

Every tablesaw sold in the US has a splitter and a guard. OSHA requires these to be in place during operations in all commercial settings. Quite like Europe, except you seem to have riving knives while we have splitters. Also, I would guess, just like in Europe, those who don't want to use the guards in their home workshop take them off. There are no hobby police that travel around looking in people's garages to see if their guards are in place. In commercial shops anyone who allows the guards to be removed risks a nasty visit from OSHA.

Dave Hall

[RonB]

My God man don't be posting this information. The next thing we know we will be required to pad our tools, wear thimbles on our fingers, and use steel-toe shoes in our home shops. We could also be subject to public disorder charges if heard swearing in our garage shops.

RonB

[jd]

the whole sawstop thing is a perfect example of how broken our system is. Rather than letting this (rather questionable in my opinion) product survive in a competetive marketplace, the sawstop folks have decided that they'll attempt to mandate the use of thier product.

Any time a vendor takes this path, I immediately have to seriously question the viability of their product. If it as as good as they say it is, there won't be any need for mandating its use (commercial shop or not). Do some simple math:

the cost of having an employee lose a finger (even if its still attached, but no longer works properly) is well over $10K - lost productivity, increased insurance premiums, time spent on paperwork, etc. If their product does what they say it does, as long as it costs less than $10K, and smart shop will be adopting it (assuming of course it really does have no effect on productivity). If it as good as they say, OSHA will eventually adopt its use, and insurance companies will offer discounts to those shops that use it. In other words, it'll pay for itself PDQ.

For the home/hobby shop, OSHA stays out anyway, so it doesn't matter what OSHA says. Of course, the saw manufacturers may decide to cover their butts by only selling saws with the sawstop.. BUt then, that is the goal of the sawstop folks - don't forget: THEY know more about the risks you take in your shop than you do. You really should let them decide whats safe for you.....

Bottom line: if the product adds significant safety without impacting productivity, it will succeed anyway. If it doesn't, it'll fail. The sawstop folks know this, and are simply trying to force it onto the marketplace to maximise thier profits. If they succeed, I see the market for used saw really explaning in the near future.

Just another case of some hoser deciding that he wants more of your money, weather you want to give it to him or not.....

--JD

[B A R R Y]

I wear ice hockey goalie gear, plus earplugs and dust protection.