Telescopic ladders?

[williamwright]

Yes this is very important. Sideways slipping is a major cause of ladder accidents.

The footing should be firm generally, and of course level. Ladder wedges are essential to compensate for variations in ground level between the stiles. This can be surprisingly significant even on apparently level concrete (for instance). I have always kept a box of 'ladder wedges' handy. These are not wedge shaped (that's dangerous!); they are flat pieces of ply or timber of various thickness. There are also commercial products, mats, that do this job.

Needless to say the ground and wedges should have high friction surfaces. If in doubt consider roping the foot of the ladder, if there's anything to rope it to. If there isn't don't do the job.

There's no point in having someone 'foot' a ladder. They couldn't save you, no chance, and if you feel you need them then the ladder is not safe in some way. Also it's dangerous in case you drop anything. No-one should go near a ladder that's got someone up it.

It's worth holding a small spirit level against the stile to check that the ladder isn't leaning one way or the other.

However, if the top landing of the ladder is immediately adjacent to a return in the wall or other feature that would absolutely prevent it falling that way, it's good to lean it very slightly that way.

Bill

[williamwright]

Yes that can be a real problem. My feet get very hot in such footwear but if I wear sandals or pumps I get terrible pain in the soles of my feet. It's a real pain in the R sole.

Bill

[williamwright]

This is a real problem with big triples. You do have to climb the ladder to extend it! The best way is to extend the top section first, with the ladder at a steeper angle than for normal use. Extend the top section as far as it will go. Then with a bit of luck you can stand on the ground and push the middle section up far enough. If it isn't far enough then you have to climb the bloody thing to push it up. It ain't good. I had a very heavy duty four storey triple at one time. The bastard thing nearly finished me off. I got shut of it finally. No-one should be doing ladder work at that sort of height anyway. It needs to be a platform or a machine, or f*ck it, forget that job, find another one. About 1990 I started to say, 'pay for access equipment or get some other silly bugger to do it.'

The heavier triples really do have to have ropes and pulleys, and two men.

Bill

[T i m]

Yet there are loads of people / 'experts' who think otherwise.

Agreed (with hindsight).

I think time will confirm if that's true or not.

You are conflating several aspects Bill. Yes, science and technology is allowing us to live longer but mostly against things that were killing us prematurely (silicosis from mining, generally H&S at work, poor diet etc) along with medical science fixing us when we might otherwise have died of both natural and *man made* ailments.

Not according to many (and so you 'hope').

Well, pollution that in some aspects can case global warming yes.

But where is the replacement fuel coming from and now I think it's you who are fact washing. Your solution is to cause the damage and then try and fix it whereas now we know what we are doing (harm-wise) we can choose (or work towards) not causing the damage (or further damage) in the first place.

So the work wasn't noticeable? Are you sure you actually did it? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Whilst out the back earlier I measured my existing 3 piece ally ladder and it's 2.5m long.

Looking online, it suggest that a similar 2.5m ladder returns:

"This 3 section ladder extends to 5.70m to enable a safe working height of 6.31m*.

(Safe working height based on 1.75m as the average reach height of a person)."

So that seems to support my idea of being able to work above the top of the ladder?

So with a stand off at the top and assuming my existing ladder hasn't suffered from being (partly) out in the elements for the last ~25 years, I might be able to get away with what I have?

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

It is. The specification for most ladders state that it's safe to use up to (say) 150kg *vertical load*. There is no mention of them (traditional ladders) being used in any other way (and would be specifically excluded in the user manual and any certificate of testing and conformity).

That may well be the case but not the point / issue.

Don't need to, I'm sticking to what we are talking about, ladders. ;-)

Why would I be doing that?

Where am I doing that?

No, again you are confused because I simply haven't rolled over and done *exactly* what you said. Unfortunately this is typical of a left brainer so I'm used to it. ;-)

Oooh, and there's another perfect example! ;-)

Ah, so you care about dogs and hoses (so far), just not cows, pigs, lamb and chickens?

Yup, no seeing if they might like some water from somewhere else that might be better for them?

And another. Classic. Like I do what you say or 'else', suffer the negative consequences?

See, what you are ignoring are the very points that are of interest to me, simply because in your world they aren't of interest to you, so you throw your toys out of the pram because I don't just tug my forelock to your 'superior knowledge.

Unfortunately, what you have demonstrated in your replies so far is a complete discounting of the requirements I highlighted (easy storage) and ignored the fact that this isn't something I'm suggesting I make at home, but buy from a respected supplier with a good reputation and something that has been given positive feedback by all those who have bought same. Bought them for *their* reasons not yours?

So, I've measured the 3 section ladder I have here and it's 2.5m long (closed) so would stand up in the workshop. However, I'd rather not waste space there so it can carry on living in the back garden and probably, carry on being unused because it's too big to use indoors and too short to cover all roles (I need) on the outside of the house?

So maybe I'll give that one to some boaters to use as gangplanks and buy a longer 3 section to leave outside?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I just happened to mention to daughter earlier my quest for thoughts on a telescopic ladder and it turns out they have one in the back of the van the she uses all the time for accessing and expecting children's play equipment (slides and swings etc) in the local parks. She says it's fine (and may use it multiple times every inspection day), albeit 'probably' not 5m long.

[T i m]

Good tip, thanks (once you have got up there without). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Of course they are, if we are talking about the serviceability and suitability of hardware.

That only applies to telescopic ladders for some reason Bill?

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

<snip>

Really?

'Save' is past tense in that case, they aren't there to save anything, they are there to *prevent* something (that physics will confirm they do (look up 'static friction')).

See above.

Not if you drop anything, just the dangerous things to people from that sort of height. Like, a handful of moss is unlikely to kill or even hurt anyone. ;-)

No, I agree it might be a last resort having someone foot a ladder for you, but again very dependant on the circumstances. The Mrs would be more than willing / happy to foot a ladder for me while I was using it to say clear some moss from a gutter and I would be happy she was there doing so.

However, I would still rather place some concrete slabs behind the ladder and wedged up against something or a length of timber pinned or weighted down. We are only talking of *preventing* the foot of the ladder slipping out, should something happen to make it want to try.

<snip>

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

But what if all those variables had already been catered for Bill, wouldn't then someone just 'checking' the angle (if they didn't have your vast experience etc) be a 'good thing'?

Cheers, T i m

[Paul]

In a Google, you can find plenty of admonitions like this.

"The correct angle for a ladder is 75 degrees or the 1 in 4 rule. (see figure 6)"

*******

"An Engineering Psychology Based Analysis of Ladder Setup Procedures"

"Based on known ladder setup angles and coefficients of friction, a detailed engineering analysis was performed to determine the total number of slide-out failures for each ladder setup method."

"Hypothetically, if an extension ladder is set up at the recommended angle of 75 degrees on a clean, level surface such as concrete, asphalt, brick, or wood, the factor of safety against slide-out at the base is approximately 2.9 to 3.4 based on static loading; however, the factor of safety typically decreases during dynamic loading as one climbs (Chang, Chang, Matz, and Son, 2004). The factor of safety is a dimensionless number and indicates the actual reaction forces at the base of the ladder are 2.9 to 3.4 times greater than the point at which the ladder may begin to slide. If the ladder is set up in a manner that has a factor of safety less than 1.0 at the base, the ladder will experience a slide-out failure. If the setup angle is reduced to 65 degrees the factor of safety decreases to a marginally safe range of 1.6 to 1.9 for static loading. Typical detrimental factors include selecting a setup angle that is too shallow (less than 75 degrees), setting ladders up on minor slopes, surfaces contaminated with moisture, or dynamic loading. Dynamic load conditions will occur with moving loads such as one ascending or descending the ladder. Minor changes to any of these factors can have negative effects on stability and safety."

When you work with ladders, you can "feel" these factors as you work. At least you can with aluminium ladders, as they're "alive enough", they tell you how they're feeling. It's the heavy wooden ladders that are rather sullen, and they're likely to let go without telling you they're not happy.

It's not a matter of getting out a slide rule and working up some numbers.

I spent a summer painting house off an aluminium extension ladder, and that's where the experience comes from. No close calls while painting at least. We worked windy days and calm days.

And I'm hearing about this 1 in 4 rule for the first time today. I received no crash course on ladders at work :-) It was just expected that you knew how to put up a ladder.

Paul

[Paul]

"How long do aluminium ladders last?

Aluminum ladders can last indefinitely, they do not have an expiry date and as long as you look after them and treat them well, they should last for decades.

Because of the properties of aluminum, these ladders will survive working and being stored outside.

However, Aluminum can crack or deform if subject to an impact, and aluminum ladders with damage can be unsafe and should be replaced.

So if you drop something heavy like a hammer or knock an Aluminium ladder against something hard it may need to be checked and possibly replaced.

It is also better to buy a new ladder then try to repair one as the repair could become a weak point and fail again in the future.

I also recommend buying ladders new rather than second hand, as you may never know if a ladder has been dropped or damaged and I would rather pay a little bit extra for a warranty and to know that it is safe. "

Even with a visual examination of "all the bits that count", I don't know if my weather eye is good enough to offer guarantees. I'm the guy who climbed onto a wooden ladder that had been outside a bit too long - I examined it, and declared it "kindy iffy", but used it anyway, and ended up breaking rungs on it. That's, uh, not a good way to examine ladders :-/ By breaking them.

You would think they would make air bags, for people who work on old ladders.

Paul

[No Name]

Bill, The 3 section ladder I have is a Hailo, and there are stickers on both stiles that explicitly state that the ladder should be at 65 to 70 degree angle to the ground so to me thats clearly a manufacturer's stated instruction.

I did on one occasion have need to paint a dormer window. The roof is at

45 degree incline. No matter how I tried, I could not acces sthe dormer window directly with a ladder from the ground at 65 to 70 degrees (there was a garage beneath the dormer bedroom)

I do have a scaffold access tower but again I could not access the dormer window from this either.

What I ended up doing was extending the 3 section ladder such that it was at the same angle as the dormer roof at 45 degrees, I laid this on the roof tiles directly beneath the dormer window down to the driveway.

I happened to have 10 bags of coal of 25 kilos each so put all ten at the bottom of the ladder (so two and a half times the weight of an average person) and also used my ladder stablisher at the midpoint between ground and when it met the garage's guttering.

(very similar to this:

but mine has a cross bar at teh bottom so the legs cannot move further apart to each other)

S.

[William Wright]

It's still wrong. But what do I know, after using ladders all day and every day for 45 years?

Bill

[Brian Gaff (Sofa]

Yes, one of the problems with ladders of the domestic kind seems to be that they tend to slip or walk to an angle where they just run away from you. I got stuck on a garage roof once when one did that on mossy concrete. I wonder what the accident figures are like for domestic use of ladders? Brian

[Owain Lastname]

Presumably it's a real pain in the L sole as well?

Owain

[Andy Burns]

My feet aren't keen on sandals, unless they have plenty of straps. I try to grip like a budgie on a pole.

[Tricky Dicky]

I try to get workbook/shoes that have a penetration resistant mid-sole mainly steel but can be composites, I find these are the most comfortable when working on a ladder. I feel the midsoles tend to spread loading across more of your foot.

Richard

[Tricky Dicky]

That is workboot, bloody spell checker.

[alan_m]

+1 Penetration resistant mid-sole is comfortable on a ladder especially if standing on a rung for any length of time.