Hmmmm. So a 5m 3 piece ladder could fail that tests where the same design in 3m might not? What if all 5m ladders failed (such an unreasonable test for the intended design / use [1]) what would you do then?
Whilst that makes sense from your POV and whilst being willing to accept the limitations of conventional ladders, it's no more valid for my intended usage than seeing how easy it is to carry a piano in a sports car.
Cheers, T i m
[1] Whilst I'm sure many would use a std 'climbing' ladder in ways not covered by the instructions, that doesn't mean doing so is acceptable or valid, as you would quickly learn from the solicitors of anyone injured because of such.
According to the official guidance I linked to previously, it suggested you shouldn't work above the top of the ladder than past your belly button. So, if I had a standoff and the ladder was directly below (not underhung) I wouldn't need to go any higher than needed to be able to see into the gutter and I could then reach what I could see (whilst keeping my body directly over the ladder).
But yes, if to do that comfortably (including the 70 Deg ladder lean angle) I needed a 6m ladder, that's what I would get (if I could).
Yeah, I used to watch him on the TV / Youtube a lot. ;-)
I have a 3 section ladder too myself that is 4.25 m when closed and
10.63 m when fully extended.
Now you are supposed to have a minimum of 4 rungs of overlap between each section, so far so good....
But when my hieght is 1.83 and with extended arms adding another 0.8m giving a maximum reach from the ground to push each section of ladder up by 2.3 m.
So if one extends each section when resting up against the wall, thats a max of 4.25 m + 2.3 m + 2.3 m = 8.85 m.... which is almost 2 m of 10.63 m fully extended.
The only way I can see of reaching that full 10.63 m is to lay the ladder on the ground and then extend it and then upend the fully extended ladder which is actualyl quite dangerous to do on your own.
Some ladders do have a pulley system but they do not seem all that common?
I have a set of ladder stabilisers which helps massively with the mid ladder sway you get when ascending said ladder....
It also helps to reduce teh risk of toppling (in addition to the top of ladder stand off and the bottom of the ladder stabiliser)
I have have a proper pair of Dr Marten style Thick chunky soled boots to avoid getting cramp or pain in feet when stood on a rung for a period of time.
It looked about right to me. No suggestion of him falling backwards or the ladder coming away from the wall, but not so much of a lean that it looked like the bottom would slip outwards (well, not past me footing it etc).
Ah, not the ladders you would buy eh, the ones you used could double as emergency tank bridges. ;-)
Decent in that you can push it's design envelope further than you should (by design). My point is it's not really anything to do with how you personally use them but how they are designed to be used.
That said, you see some terrifying ladder work all over the place but whilst they look terrifying, they may not be stressing the ladder as much as if used by the official guidance.Like if you used one to support a vertical load (like an Acrow prop) that may be far less stress than your horizontal test.
Sorry, missed / forgot that. What lengths / makes are they OOI Bill?
Well, I do have an ally triple in the garden, only partially covered and hasn't been used for years but the problem with it in use is how much you lose on the overlap per section. And because I don't believe it's long enough, I was thinking of replacing it with a telescopic that I could store inside somewhere that was.
No room indoors to do such a thing and the workshop roof is full of boat and steel stock etc.
That said, the workshop is ~240mm at the eaves so if I kept it inside vertically, I might be able to get one of these in:
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I think that depends on what sort of 'work' we are talking about Bill, along with the frequency and duration of that work.
Eg, Say the ladder only reaches just under the gutter and I use a standoff to bring it out level. According to the guidance I shouldn't go higher than the top of the ladder past my belly button and so with the case stated above, some of my upper body would be above the gutter line. All I would need to remove the odd but of moss and part of a slipped slate is my eyes and one arm?
;-)
I think if that's what they did regularly we would hear about it and they would be pulled from the market?
No, I get it Bill ... and I'm just playing Devils Advocate with you here to see *why* one of these telescopic ladders that they seem to openly sell on the market and people obviously buy and use are so bad?
By 'stubborn' you mean 'not rolling over when you state how you used / tested such things in your professional day-to-day job'. That's not how I'll be using them. ;-(
No, and even if the ladder was to fail, I'm hoping it wouldn't come to that as I've got some gear here I might also use (like an arrestor and harness).
I will look into seeing what I could store in the workshop but space
*is* an issue here and I have to justify if I want to take up that sort of space in the workshop (for the limited number of times they might be used) compared with a hydraulic motorcycle bench. ;-)
Once they aren't being stored inside, they could be any length, if they didn't need to be transported and didn't suffer for being stored outside?
I use a Fracarro satellie inclinometer against my ladder to confirm its at the recommended 65 to 70 degrees inclination angle before I set foot on it....
I read the question as would a 5m ladder give me USEABLE access to a gutter 5m off the ground? What do you believe the question to be and what answer would you expect?
Consider how much longer the ladder has to be if the angled away from the wall. At 75 degrees you would need a 5.6m ladder (and using a stand-off doesn't change this)
You have obviously not tried to clear a gutter with a ladder that only just reaches the gutter (with or without a stand-off). You would find with your belly button at the top of the ladder you have nothing to hold on to with your "spare" hand except the gutter, which unlike those portrayed in comedy films it will not support your weight if you are considering it as your backup safety measure.
But having read all the official advice and ignored all the practical advice I'm sure that you now have a cast iron guarantee that your preferred solution is safe.
Just make sure that someone or something is footing the ladder. I'm not a regular user of a ladder but when working alone I have two 25Kg bags of sand or shingle at the foot of the ladder to help prevent movement. I have 3 ladders, a 3.X metre telescopic, a light weight aluminium 2 section that extends to around 7m and a very heavy aluminium 2 stage that extend to around 1m above my gutter height. Whilst the latter is a complete PITA to erect (it is heavy) it is the only one that I would consider using for clearing the gutters in my 1905 property.
Even for indoor use my preference over the telescopic ladder is an aluminium step ladder that converts into an "up to" 3m conventional ladder.
With a long ladder its also worth standing well back from it to ensure that standing vertically up the wall. When putting up a ladder it's looked vertical from the base of the ladder but when standing back and looking at it from a distance I've often found that it may have a lean to the side by 0.5m at the top.
I claim no particular expertise, but I do know that having done it both ways I feel a lot safer when doing the whole gutter using a ladder stay with the ladder extending two or three feet above the gutter. And if you have a long enough ladder quick jobs like you mention can be done just resting the ladder on the gutter without bothering with the ladder stay.
That would nearly be long enough for my needs in one section. ;-)
Whoa, that sounds pretty long. Fireman? ;-)
And that's still not always easy, especially on the second section.
That raises an interesting point .... of is there a sweet spot re ladder length that 'most people' (likely to be doing such things) could realistically handle?
As you say, 2.3m plus the 4 rungs worth you lose?
Or even with help if you aren't reasonably strong (or there is a breeze blowing)? ;-)
No, I was thinking that and how much easier it should make it. I say 'should' because like all things I'm guessing there would be some compromises ... like, do the pulleys act in the middle of the ladder or do you have one each side (to keep it extending straight)? Do they latch in a different way?
The focus was on 'good' (as in expectation of the range of makes / models of telescopic ladders out there) and could any do the job at
*around* 5m. The 5m wasn't specifically a focus there, just an approximation of the sorts of heights I was talking about.
eg, I think many here know that the 3.x m telescopic ladders are very useable and because they are fairly common, are likely to have good price / build competition.
Yes, I got (and appreciated) that, but see above. I was looking for a more general reply about the practicality of a telescopic ladder to be used at around those heights.
Well I have, but only on a bungalow. The principal would be the same, irrespective of the heights involved.
Other than the top of the ladder you mean?
;-)
Nope, just (still) bouncing ideas off those here who have experience of telescopic (specifically) ladders mate.
Check.
Yup. I've done similar (along with it being footed most the time) or arranged some form of stop with slabs or timber up against an immovable object.
Understood, and would be my preference, assuming it was an option within all the other variables / compromises.
Yeah, I've often seen roofers doing that (when doing a quick repair job specifically) but it always worries me (that the gutter will break, but they haven't yet).
If I was using a long telescopic I think I would like to use a stay, just to help make the top more stable against twisting?
Pollution is collateral damage from modern science, technology, and industry. These have done massively more for the good of humanity than pollution has done harm. By your logic lifespans should have reduced because of pollution but in fact they have tripled thanks to modern science, technology, and industry.
Carbon footprint is irrelevant to the well-being of humanity because it has very little bearing on atmospheric temperatures and that doesn't matter anyway, because thanks to modern science, technology, and industry we can adapt.
Of global temperatures? Instead of wasting money on ridiculous schemes like windmills and battery cars, and causing fuel poverty and a general reduction in standards of living, use the money to fix anything that happens as a result of natural temperature changes.
It isn't an unreasonable test. It probably exceeds the in-use requirement by a factor of four, but that's a normal engineering margin. Think about bridges and lift cables.
So why do you value your life so cheaply? Why are you prepared to take avoidable risks?
I don't know you bothered asking about this because you'd already made your mind up. When wiser councel challenges your ignorance-based preconceptions you just became pig-headed. Well, I've led the horse to water; it won't drink, so it can bloody well die of dehydration or alternatively fall off a crap ladder.
If you have to rest a ladder on plastic guttering for some reason, put a narrow plank inside the guttering, spanning its internal width, to spread the load.
Well don't. That's dangerous. The safe angle depends on the ground, the landing place at the top and whether it can be secured, the type of ladder, the load, and the weather conditions. There's no way 65 or 70 degrees -- or any other angle -- can be right for every situation.
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