Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?



I think we all have to hope that the fusion reactor can be made to work in the reasonably near future!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
harry wrote:

Theres at least 100 years of easily accessible uranium to use up first.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Might make them go sterile?
Andy
--
I assume you mean IED!

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Andy Champ wrote:

'Typo of the week' award? ;-)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Some really "Hot" sex, though....
-- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made with meat?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

The opposite is the case. ;-)
Derek. (Who knew all along this "Womens Lib" stuff was wrong).
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

a couple of corrections there. At 3 mile Island there was no fire other than the little hydrogen burn but it happened in seconds and could probably be described more as a wil'o'wisp type flame than a true burn or explosion. For example there was a foreman's desk and stool sitting on the refueling deck, left there from the initial fuel load. one part of the vinyl on the stool showed char marks while other parts didn't. It was like someone had wafted a gentle flame across the stool. Similar wispy burn marks were observable on the epoxy coating that was applied to all surfaces inside the containment.
The second correction is that there was no containment failure at 3 mile Island. As I noted in my previous post, the containment building sustained over three times its design pressure without registering any excess stress. The only openings to the atmosphere were the intentional ventings, either to reduce the pressure or the hydrogen concentration.
as part of the "lessons learned" modifications required by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (generally known as RegGuide 1.97 mods), both hydrogen igniters and additional hydrogen recombination units were installed in all plants. The igniters, basically glow plugs, would be turned on in the event hundred and was detected, the intention being to cause it to burn before it reached an explosive concentration.
RE: Chernobyl. Chernobyl did not have a containment at all so there was no failure. The Russians believed that their technology was infallible and therefore a containment was not necessary. Seriously.
Secondly, the RMBK type reactor is both graphite and water moderated, and both have positive temperature coefficients of reactivity, disasters waiting to happen. In the free world, strong negative coefficients of reactivity are designed in to make the reactor self regulating. If the fuel or the water heats up, the reactivity automatically decreases and so the reactor, self regulates itself. Under no condition could it run away.
In stark contrast, the RMBK reactors are graphite moderator in a positive temperature coefficient of reactivity. That meant that is as the graphite heated up, it became a more efficient moderator, leading to more power, leading to more heat, etc. in a positive feedback loop. In other words, a design capable of running away.
Similarly, the water channels were designed such that they had a positive void coefficient. That is, the more steam voids that appear in the cooling tubes, the better the moderation from the graphite. Again, a run-away design.
It is simply remarkable that that style reactor racked up as many reactor years as it did before something like Chernobyl happened.
In serious discussion, Chernobyl and reactor safety really shouldn't be used in the same sentence. Accident safety simply was not a consideration in the reactor design.

Sure, go right ahead. I'd appreciate a pointer back to my web site, of course, but otherwise feel free to use any of that material as you wish.

I don't know. I spent many hundreds of hours refuting the anti-nuclear arguments. I learned that for some it is a strange sort of religion, and mere facts have no impression on their thinking. The best thing we can hope for is to marginalize these people into insignificance while we used facts to sway the uncommitted. To a reasonable person with an open mind there really isn't much argument to be made. It's either nuclear or out go the lights in a few years or a decade or two.

to me, the risks are so infinitesimally small as to the unquantifiable, especially compared to everything else. While we continue our perfect record of having never harmed or killed anyone with nuclear energy, wind, for example, has killed at least one person during an overspeed incident. I believe there's video on Youtube. Of course people have been killed constructing nuclear plants and there have been incidents on the steam side but no one has yet been harmed by the nuclear operation. That continues to be unique in the energy industry.
John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Multitasking: Reading in the bathroom!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Neon John wrote:

Nver m,ind the tank. Can we come visit? looks like my idea of heaven!

What I mean was, that a simple cast in place concrete structure with reinforcing makes an adequate water tank. Our water here is in fact stored in just such.. a tower about 100ft high, with a massive concrete tank on top. festooned with mobile phone antennae. stuck at the highest part of the local countryside.
a little chlorine keeps it all bug free.

Sounds good. When I was on borehole water I had a pump about 100ft down, a roof mounted tank, and a float switch.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Sure. Come on up. I love visitors. If you know what a daily shower is, I even have guest rooms. Otherwise it's the Green cove motel for ye :-)

Wish I had a spot for something like that. Over 30 years ago I used a 1000 gallon septic tank as the ice bank cold storage medium for my homemade central AC. I stored up "cold" at night when the air was cool and used it in the day when the sun blazed. A ground sourced heat pump would probably have been better but by the time I thought of the idea I was committed. Still, the system was VERY cheap to operate and I was satisfied.
And to answer the question, "Where were you when Elvis died?" I was sitting in a guy's driveway in north Hixon TN waiting for a guy to come home to sell me some HVAC parts. Even still remember the address. :-)
John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Be in the world but not of it -Bhuddist proverb
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The practical problem is, that would only about half unload the pump. the 100 ft head of water is about 41 psi (from memory using about 29 inches of water per psi.) of static head before the pump turns a revolution. One would need some sort of bleed valve or weep hole at the bottom to allow the water column to drain away (and then figure out how to deal with the water hammer that resulted) or perhaps a custom valve that would let the pump operate in local recirc mode for a few seconds.
Far too complicated for my tastes, especially since the larger inverter will do the job without modification and with plenty of head room.
John
-- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming' sheep.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

This is a submersible pump so one would have to make another 200 ft pipe run to the pump inlet. Just the head pressure would equalize the pump but at the expense of a lot of work and materials and it might fail dangerous (in bypass) when I needed it the most.

I've already put a kick-starter on it (capacitor and PTC) that supplies starting VARs but that wasn't enough. It does keep the pump from flickering my lights, though.

yeah, I think so. I've killed a bunch of brain cells thinking about this. For fire protection, it has to be stone cold reliable. Even with the inverter, I'll still have a switch that I can throw and hit the pump with the generators. I have two for redundancy and am about to build a slow-speed unit using a Listeroid engine to burn a supply of waste oil that I have access to. It's good clean oil, simply designated as waste.
Anyway, my solution has to be as reliable as a rock and that will probably end up being the 500 gallon tank up on the hill behind the cabin that I've been mentioning. If 500 gallons won't put out the fire then it's probably too out of control to do anything with anyway. I put out the beginnings of a brush-fire-caused house fire last year with less than half the 175 gallons on the FS's pickup-mounted pumper. With a good nozzle and good technique, it doesn't take all that much water.
Interestingly enough, in this instance, the engine driven pump almost didn't start. It'd catch, surge and quit. I managed to put out most of the fire using the surges. By the time the engine finally caught, the fire was mostly out, only embers remaining. I suggested that they might consider a PTO-driven pump in the future. Much cheaper than a gas engine to boot.
That experience raised my leeriness-level toward gas powered fire protection considerably.
John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Nuke the Whales!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 07:42:06 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@care2.com wrote:

http://home.clara.net/darvill/altenerg/pumped.htm
Pump it up and use it when you need it
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Alang wrote:

If only Carole Vorderman had stuck to the day job eh? Instead of flogging consolidation loans to Countdown viewers who think she's good at maths...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

My other half is also an engineer and she admires Carol Vorderman. I asked her if it was because Carol was a good engineer? No. Is it because she trained in an almost all male environment and still made it through? No. OK, I give in. Why is it you admire Carol Vorderman? She married a good looking guy and got a job on the TV.
Sheesh!!! Women.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 18:51:39 +0000, Andy Burns

Jeremy Clarkson can drive too
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Alang wrote:

Thats a matter of opinion.;-)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Umm do you have any idea on the weight required.
I reckon my average consumption is around 2kW.
Lets assume need to store energy for 24 hours supply.
Lets assume maximum height available, practically, is 10m.
PE = mgh
2kW for 24hrs is 48kWhr
48kWhr = 173MJ
Solve for m in equation ----- err 1600 metric tonnes, and that assumes 100% efficiency in recovering the energy.
Yep, sounds practical to me!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start vehicle but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train to achieve the necessary power transfers. Interesting though!! Don
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I once saw a BBC Christmas lecture by Prof Eric Laithwaite which explored the idea.
The biggest issue was safety, the energy stored in the flywheel would have been tremendous and if a failure occured and the flywheel escaped it would have carved "A neat slot" through buildings for miles across the city.
That and Gyroscopic precession. If the flywheel was horizontal the bus could turn left or right, but if ever one side of the bus ran into a gutter and the bus tried to rotate the flywheel in the horizontal axis once again absolutely tremendous forces would impinge on the bearings / mountings of the flywheel.

Intuitively I feel sure that could be done magnetically / electrically
Derek
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:47:06 +0000, Derek Geldard

The effect on the handling of a gyroscope is mentioned in this article http://photo.proaktiva.eu/digest/2008_gyrobus.html
Not the same as mentioned by Donwill, these were an attempt to have electrically powered buses without the overhead wires required by a Trolleybus. Not too successfully as it turned out but they did run and did not manage to destroy their surroundings.
Here in the UK this company seems to have been around promoting Flywheel storage for ages. http://www.parrypeoplemovers.com/ but I don't think any commercial operation has started yet.
G.Harman
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.