OT: Vaccinations and Young Children

Are they really going to make vaccinations compulsory? I mean, seriously?? Almost every young child will recover from childhood illnesses by simply staying in bed for a few days and keeping warm and hydrated.
OTOH, *no* young child will recover from autism. It's just not worth the risk IMV.
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On 26/12/2019 01:15, Cursitor Doom wrote:

I hope so.

I see. So Polio is recoverable from vcompletely woth a few days in bed.
And german measles doesnt cause deformed foetuses. And whooping cough and croup dont permanently damage lungs, And TB is not a killer.

But autism is a career path for Greens. And has no connection with immunisation apart from the fact that it tends to be recognised as an issue at the same age the child is given innoculations.
Coincidence is not correlation and correlation is not causation
Every person who drinks milk dies. Do you think we should ban it?
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On Thu, 26 Dec 2019 01:25:31 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

YES.
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If you go on like this you will probably be seen as slightly odd yourself!
I've had Whooping cough, and it has predisposed me to chest issues ever since, however you cannot prove that I'd not have had these if I'd not had Whooping Cough, only that its likely to have been less severe. One has to be very careful with medical correlations. That is how we got to the point where some medication won't work in Women as trials were carried out mostly in men. Brian
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'Slightly' ?????
On 26/12/2019 09:11, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:

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On 26/12/2019 01:46:34, Cursitor Doom wrote:

You've just lost any semblance of an argument.
Rather than forcing children to be immunised I would have no problem in withholding say Child Benefit. Immunisation is just as important for others as it is for the individual.
If you're willing to pay, say 5p on your income tax, for the maintenance of blind children and throughout their adulthood as a consequence of Measles, then I would have less issue.
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Don't some nurseries, etc, refuse children who haven't been vaccinated?
That makes sense to me.
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On 26/12/2019 14:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I don't recall hearing of a case. I would have thought the 'anti-vaxers' would have enlisted 'rent-a-mob' if it had happened.

Ditto.
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On 26/12/2019 14:38:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I believe threats have been made. However its very difficult to enforce as there are no national records of immunisation.
I've known mothers to say their child's immunisation "is up to date", where their child has never been so immunised.
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On 26/12/2019 13:49, Fredxx wrote:

That's the lottery tickets sales down then
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On 26/12/2019 13:49, Fredxx wrote:

The problem is that while immunisations are safer than getting the diseases, parents have heard scare stories and don't want to have been responsible for the damage that happens to a tiny fraction of those vaccinated, when their child may never have contracted the illness anyway.
Government has also removed options, such as single vaccines, due mainly to the additional cost over multi-vaccine injections.
Our children were due their vaccinations at the height of the MMR scare and, on top of that, my wife had worked with two women (all three experienced nurses, so good medical knowledge) whose children were developing normally (or even ahead); both had the MMR; both developed a fever and went floppy the same evening; both took a week to get over the illness; both had regressed significantly; and both were later diagnosed with autism.
We decided that we would not take the risk and would go for single vaccines, with the MMR as a booster when they were older and their immune systems more developed. At three vaccinations per child and £135 per vaccination, others may not have been able to afford that option.
Even we found it difficult, with months of delay, because the government had restriced the quantities of the single vaccines that could be imported (even for private care), causing an artificial shortage.
It is hardly surprising that parents with lesser resources simply decide not to vaccinate.
On top of the fears, parents also have worry that where children may be damaged by vaccinations (there is no doubt that a small number are), the NHS/government will deny it (look at HPV and narcolepsy) and families will be left responsible for the continued care of their damaged child, having to quit work to provide that care, etc. without the compensation that would help families pay their bills and retain at least a somewhat normal life for the rest of the family.
SteveW
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" "On Thu, 26 Dec 2019 22:10:36 +0000, Steve Walker

Compare the tiny vaccine risk with the risk from both the chance of getting the disease and the consequences and vaccination has a clear benefit. If people steadfastly refuse to see this how can they be convinced otherwise?
The dedicated and gullible followers of Wakefield swallowed his single vaccines over MMR stance without noticing the "study" it was supposedly based on didn't mention vaccination at all. That was only in a remark at a press conference (how many minor studies get a press conference?). He also failed to tell anyone he had applied for a patent for a single measles vaccine or that he was in the pay of a solicitor and had already made nearly half a million pounds from that.
https://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347
A problem with the MMR scare was that information which would have shown the work at Unigenetics claiming to have shown measles virus was in Wakefields samples was wrong was suppressed (sealed) by the lawyers for Wakefield for several years by claiming they were needed in the UK claims against SKB. It wasn't until the Cedillo vaccine damage case in the USA that Prof Bustin's evidence of the shoddy work in Unigenetics became public knowledge.
The Cedillo case is worth reading, the claimants had the opportunity to justify their claims and time and the money to use the best experts there were. The best they could come up with was a collection of professional expert witnesses and unqualified anti vaccers. Wakefield for whatever reason did not attend to defend his theories. Not surprisingly they lost.
https://www.autism-watch.org/omnibus/cedillo.pdf

It was mainly because organising three or more trips to a doctor to have several vaccinations led to many parents failing to attend, combined vaccinations had a much higher take up rate.

Which would have happened anyway. MMR does not cause autism. They had probably taken their children to McDonalds at some time as well and a standard happymeal has exactly the same odds of causing Autism as MMR vaccine.

Annoying when governments act on evidence and science rather than unsubstantiated claims from "activists" whose mantra is "my mind is made up - do not confuse me with facts".

Why should they be compensated specifically for something which didn't cause the problem in the first place?
"In November 2015, the European Medicines Agency published the results of a major review of the safety of HPV vaccines including Gardasil and Cervarix, examining an alleged link to two conditions.
They were: complex regional pain syndrome (CRPS), a chronic pain syndrome which affects limbs; and POTS (postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome), which involves rapid heart rate increases on sitting or standing up, along with fatigue, dizziness and other symptoms.
The large scale EMA review concluded that there was no causal relationship between the HPV vaccines and the two conditions, and that, essentially, the prevalence of those two conditions was no greater among those treated with the vaccines, than among the general population."
" a 2013 study of almost one million 10-17 year-old girls in Denmark and Sweden found no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated girls in the rate of what have been claimed to be serious adverse effects – various autoimmune and neurological conditions, as well as venous thromboembolism (VTE), which includes deep vein thrombosis.
Another study from 2014 analysed 42 completed or ongoing clinical trials of Cervarix and found that the rates of symptoms were almost identical between vaccinated and control groups.
In fact, the rates of “medically significant conditions” and “serious adverse events” were slightly lower among the vaccinated groups, not that any particular conclusion should be drawn from that.
This summary of nine separate studies involves research into possible associations between HPV vaccines and a wide range of conditions and symptoms, including serious ones like stroke, appendicitis, and Guillain-Barré syndrome, an immune disorder that causes weakness and even paralysis, and has been claimed to be caused by HPV vaccination.
In almost all cases, the research found no difference between vaccinated and control groups in the prevalence of the conditions, with the exception of temporary problems like fainting and skin irritation.
In one case, a lower “odds ratio” (essentially a lower risk) of multiple sclerosis was observed among the vaccinated group.
In the case of Guillain-Barré syndrome, the rate of reported cases was 0.2 per 100,000 doses of Gardasil. That’s one in half a million, or 0.0002%. And that rate was no higher than is typical of other vaccines.
Yet another 2011 systematic review of existing research concluded that the prevalence of serious adverse events was not different between vaccinated and control groups."
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On 26/12/2019 22:10, Steve Walker wrote:

IMO that's a very fair argument - but one in favour of a no-fault compensation scheme (cf e.g. NZ's ACC) rather than against vaccination. (It never ceases to amaze me that people think it fair in a socialised medical system that that one child with disability X as a result of a mistake gets £M million by way of compensation while another with X as a result of bad luck gets a very small fraction of £M by way of benefits.)
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The ACC scheme has little to offer parents who believe their children have suffered vaccine damage but can't prove it. Vaccine injuries are very rare and of those claims accepted by the ACC most are for fairly trivial injuries. The claimant still has to prove a causal link between the vaccination and injury and about half of the claims made under the ACC are rejected.
In the UK the equivalent (for vaccination) to the ACC already exists in the form of the Vaccine Damage Payments Act 1979. Out of 1,483 claims made between 1 January 2000 and 31 December 2010 to the vaccine damage payments unit, 26 resulted in an award
From the ACC
"The accepted claims related to vaccinations are associated with different injury groups; the most common accepted injury group is infections. The infection injury group accounts for 47% of the accepted claims. It is also worth noting that serious or fatal treatment injuries as a result of vaccinations are vanishingly rare; accounting for fewer than 0.2% of claims made in the 10-year period you mention" (2005 to 2019)
Many countries (including the UK) have vaccine injury compensation schemes which do not require the claimant to prove negligence but do require establishing (usually to a lower standard of proof than a negligence claim) that there is a relationship between the injury and the vaccination. Often this may be temporal. For example in the USA if anaphylaxis occurs within 4 hours of hepatitis B vaccine administration, it is presumed due to the vaccine. Occurring a day later and it isn't.
Most schemes have a table of injuries, in the USA this is the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act: Vaccine Injury Table
https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/vaccinecompensation/vaccineinjurytable.pdf
The use of such tables makes the assessment of cause and effect much more straightforward. It does not of course help those who, despite a lack of evidence, insist that whatever problem their child has is caused by vaccinations.
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On 28/12/2019 12:53, Peter Parry wrote:

<snip> >> (It never ceases to amaze me that people think it fair in a socialised

Yes. I had misremembered where the NZ legislation ended up on the idea of compensation based on the needs of a person regardless of the cause of the injury. No excuse as I ought to know better.
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On Thursday, 26 December 2019 13:49:13 UTC, Fredxx wrote:

Not sure how this would help the children though, if their parents were stubbon about it.

They showed the effectiveness at the royal institution xmas lectures this year, to prove the point. They made it simple enough that even a child could understand the advantages of mass inoculation

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On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 05:17:50 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave

Just more propaganda from the usual suspects (the BBC).
Anyone contemplating getting their child vaccinated should check this article out first:
https://tinyurl.com/qs9yn8f
There's also a very revealing expose on the veracity of the herd immunity claims.
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On 02/01/2020 19:09, Cursitor Doom wrote:

" I was taught that vaccines were completely safe and completely effective," says the Doctor in the article.
Well he must have gone to a really shite medical school then. Effectiveness of vaccines and possible safety issues was taught in my biology classes in 1973.
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