[OT]Taking back power, eh, Brexitards?

Hard Brexit: the eye-catching contingency plans to stop NI power blackouts
https://www.ft.com/content/dcd8bb09-d583-3407-9209-942ab7915513
    Thousands of electricity generators would have to be requisitioned     at short notice and put on barges in the Irish Sea to help keep     the lights on in Northern Ireland in the event of the hardest     no-deal Brexit, according to one paper drawn up by Whitehall     officials.
(If this URL takes you somewhere other than the article it took me too, I suggest you refer your whining to the FT and not to me.)

On 11/07/18 18:40, Huge wrote:
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If you think that the Irish grid - which spans two nations - wont contiunue to work after Brexit your are more lunhatic than I thought
These people seem to think a state of war will exist between the UK and the EU.
Hmm. Maybe that is the EUs last hope ...

On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 18:44:28 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
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That's still down the road a way as yet. But it'll come soon enough. It'll be the 3rd time in a little over a century when we have to rescue continental europe from under the Nazi jackboot.

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We ought to sit the next one out. But the EU will end in tears, sure enough.

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You've not even considered this debacle may be just the mess the IRA etc were waiting for to stir up feelings again? After all, you Brexiteer fanatics used just this techinque to get your way.
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Exactly how so many little englanders saw things.
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The really sad thing is if the EU did collapse, the likes of you think the UK would benefit. And you are just about as wrong there as with so much else.

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Oh dear ! It looks like somebody has been watching Emily Maitless again.
First there was this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3BO6GP9NMY

( "The Day Today". Australia and England are induced into declaring war following robust questioning of their spokesmen by Chris Morris)
And then I swear I watched Maitless almost bring Israel and the Palestinians to the brink of war during an interview with their respective spokesmen which would have been on "Newsnight", I assume. Now she's got the IRA on the move.
Anyway what Turnip, characteristically fails to appreciate is that without an agreement in place which has been endorsed by all 27 EU members, the Southern Irish as members of the EU will be forbidden, as a condition of their continuing membership, from trading electricity with the non EU member in the North. To ensure compliance if necessary the relevant connections will have to be physically disconnected if only temporarily.
It really is as simple as that.
michael adams
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what about the other interconnections between England and France?

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Indeed.
It looks like we may have to start importing generators too.
Providing we can get the petrol.
Unfortunately, unlike with Northern Ireland there's never been any history of smuggling petrol over the border from France.
michael adams
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Quite. And how come Germany can buy gas from Russia?

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Eh ?
Charles is alluding to the fact that the current arrangement between the UK and France is the result of our both being members of the EU. But when one of us leaves the EU, then that arrangement will no longer apply.
The arrangement whereby any EU member state, Germany in this case can buy Gas from Russia is the result of an agreement between the EU as a whole and Russia.
This does howver raise the question as to how the UK is going to import any energy at all, in the event of a hard Brexit.
Maybe up North in some places they've still got some slag heaps where they can fish out the odd lumps of coal, taking them home in the pram as they did in the 30's. ( Thats the 1930's for any younger viewers )
michael adams
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Even sillier and more pig ignorant than you usually manage, and that’s saying something.
No reason why both countrys can't continue the current arrangement.
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Wrong, as always.
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Just by importing it, fuckwit.

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Being stupid and ignorant already puts you at a considerable disadvantage.
Being stupid, ignorant and embittered, owing to your isolation, whereby you're reduced to posting on a NewsGroup based in a country 9000 miles away, of which you clearly know very little, puts you at an even greater disadvantage.
Being stupid, ignorant, and embittered and posting whilst being drunk, in your case at least is clearly inadvisable; to say the very least
While the news probably never made the front page of The Didgeeredoo Post and Argus, the reason we're in this mess is precisely because as members of the EU we've not been allowed to negotiate trade deals of our own. Otherwise they'd already be in place to be implemented in the event of Brexit. And what applies to us prior to Brexit, will apply equally well to France after Brexit. If they want to stay members at least.
I'm sure if you go outside right now and stagger about for long enough you might be lucky enough to find a sheep who will let you take your mind off things. At least until you sober up.
michael adams
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<reams of your puerile shit any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed where it belongs>
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There is no mess, just immense piles of lies by remoaners.
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They arent allowed to negotiate trade AGREEMENTS on their own. They are however free to negotiate individual trade deals with operations outside the EU.
And free to continue individual trade agreements entered into within the EU when one of the partys leaves the EU.
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They don’t get kicked out of the EU if they choose to continue a specific trade agreement after one of the partys leaves the EU.
Even you should realise that if Britain does a hard brexit, Airbus will continue to buy RR engines from Britain even tho it is outside the EU, because if they don’t do that, Airbus is dead because even you should have noticed that aircraft do need engines.

On 13/07/2018 11:06, michael adams wrote:
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Is it an arrangement between two commercial privately owned companies and bugger all to do with the EU? The cost of the energy flowing may change due to import or export tariffs but the energy will still flow. The cost differential will be no different to the National Grid buying from differently costed sources depending on demand. Even with an extortionate tariff French electricity may be cheaper than that from our own Green sources.
Maybe all that will happen is that all the electrons will have to be stored in a large warehouse until the overworked customers inspectors have had time to check the contents? If they time the delay correctly in checking it could be used to fill the gaps in energy flow from the welsh tidal barrier.

On 13/07/18 18:56, alan_m wrote:
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just one actually, and I THINK its National Grid for the French ICT.
Oh, Its joint owned
"Ownership is shared between National Grid Interconnectors Limited (NGIC) and Réseau de Transport d’Electricité (RTE, French Transmission System Operator)."
https://www.elexon.co.uk/about/background-to-the-industry/interconnectors/
Britned run the Dutch Interconnect.
"BritNed Development Limited is a joint venture of Dutch TSO TenneT and British National Grid and operates the electricity link between Great Britain and the Netherlands which was commissioned in 2011."
The two links to 'Le continent' are a bit like the Darford tinnel/bridge, except te guvmints never annexed them.
A private company takes a cut to transmit energy from one side or the other so e.g. if EON (UK) need to buy some gigawatt hours from EDF in france, to satisfy its customners, it will enter into a contract with the cable company and pay them a percentage to get them across the channnel.
Likewise if EON in germanny is short of GWH it will enter into a contract with say DRAX to buy some leccy, and pay transit to the cable company.
If the two flows cancel out the cable company gets paid double for transmitting nothing.
Ther is nothing political about any of this UNLESS the EU choose to stick tarriffs on electricity imports.
Its a simple case of mutlinational subisidiaries owned by parent companies that are inside and outside the EU.
In the case of Ireland the situation is this (sorry remeaners, I know you dislike facts, but tough shit)
EirGrid
Since 2006, EirGrid has operated and developed the national high voltage electricity grid in Ireland. EirGrid is a state-owned company. EirGrid is independent from ESB. We operate the flow of power on the grid and plan for its future, while ESB networks is responsible for carrying out maintenance, repairs and construction on the grid. The grid moves wholesale power around the country. We bring energy from generation stations to heavy industry and high-tech users. We also supply the distribution network operated by ESB Networks that powers every electricity customer in the country.
SONI
SONI is the electricity System Operator for Northern Ireland. From our control centre in Belfast, we ensure that power flows where and when needed. We bring power from those who generate energy, and supply the distribution network operated by Northern Ireland Electricity that brings power to individual homes, farms and businesses. SONI is independent from Northern Ireland Electricity. Since 2014, SONI is responsible for planning for the future of the grid, while Northern Ireland Electricity is responsible for maintenance, repairs and construction of the grid.
SEMO
SEMO is the Single Electricity Market Operator for the island of Ireland. This organisation runs the wholesale market for electricity. This allows companies to make bids to buy or sell electricity in bulk. A well-run electricity market is essential for all those who need this energy. It provides fair and independent pricing for those who generate electricity. It also permits competition in the sale of power, which benefits every electricity user.
So the national grid equivalent of Nothern Ireland is a wholly owned subsidiary of an Irish Repllic based company.
Again no reason for it to be an issue *unless te EU makes it one*. And tells Eirgrid to shut down SONI and SEMO, and isolate NI.
Which would be enough reason to declare war on te EU.
And enlist NATO and US support to invade Brussels.
This is the real point. Any moves the EU makes to damge the UK will result in as much or more damage to the countries and businesses that comprise the EU..
Those businesses dont particularly want change, because change costs a little. But they most certainly do not want, post a hard brexit, the EU making the changes any worse than they need to be bu engaging in trade embargos, spiteful political interference in electricity markets or air travel.
If they do that, the weight of the Eurobusiness community would swing from Europhile to Eurosceptic in a blink.
Trump has more or less stated (though whether his words carry any weight remeians to be seen) that he would utterly support the UK against a hostile EU.
The US, like it or not, swings a lot of weight.
The cost of the energy flowing may
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Certainly would be, but of course one of the delights of Brexit is taht te climate change acat, te CfD mecahnism, the xcpacaity agreemens and the like cpoiuld all be tiorn upo, reneable obligations scrapped, and we could, given Trump style leadership, go back to selecting technologies that work on a cost basis.
There ares some interesting hints in a statement by parliamentary under-secretary of state at BEIS (wot replaced DECC) abour the UK reglarory authority (that is well on the way to decoupling itself from Euratom), that it will not necessarily be copying Euratom rules and procedures, but only creating an *equivalent* safety standard'...
"Although we will be leaving Euratom, we remain firmly committed to the highest standards of nuclear safeguards and non-proliferation. The draft Nuclear Safeguards Regulations set out in this consultation are a concrete demonstration of this commitment. They will establish a new domestic safeguards regime for the UK that will provide coverage and effectiveness equivalent to that currently provided by Euratom and are the means by which we will exceed our international obligations."
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS-UKs-post-Brexit-nuclear-plans-face-scrutiny-12071801.html
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I wonder how it all works with switzerland then
That's a power house of nuclear and hydro power.
Norway, used to balance Denmark and German renewable shit, isn't in the EU either.
And as you pointed out, neither is Russia.
If we are going to have trade embarhgoes on energy, or impose tarrigfs...welll look here
"Since 2012, when Russia joined the WTO, EU-Russia trade relations have also been framed by WTO rules."
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/russia/index_en.htm
What that means AIUI is that the EU has *de jure* committed to applying no worse terms to Britain under a hard brexit scenario, in terms of imports and exports, than it does to Russia.
Breach of WTO rules could lead to sanctions being imposed on the EU by Russia and the rest of the world,
Project Fear is scraping the barrel for any legal agreement that exists under current EU rules and claiming that post brexit it will cease to exist and therefore trade will stop.
Its all bluff, unless the EU intends to become an internationall rogue state.
But tjis is te quandary te EU is in., Its an emperors new clothes moment.
The little boy Farage has pointed and said 'but what does the EU actually *do*?
And the truth is dawning, that it does nothing except protect lazy incompetent businesses in Europe, from international competition. And that it has no interest in the people of Europe at all. All the other stuff it does could just as easily - and a lot more efficiently - be done by a series of bilateral or multilateral trade agreements. Imagine another sort iof EU that said 'look chaps, we have negotiated a package with canada, its up to you if you sign up for it, or whether you go WTO or whether you do a deal yoursleves'.
Ditto for things like Euratom. What has politics got to do with an international standards authority? Nothing, BUT its been politicised BY THE EU, so off we go.
The EU is lie a new boss who comes in and knwos fuck all about the business, but tries to worm its way in by making up rules.
Along with a fair percentage of remoaners, I have always been in favour of some form of *co-operative* European authority that all nations could feel *belonged to them*, as a way of improving relationships between European nations and leveraging ecoomies of scale *where appropiate*.
What we have however is a *coercive* authority that considers that the *nations belong to it*.
These are not public servants, they are a criminal mafia, a protection racket that has not protected, who have usurped power from national governments under false pretences. The UK has called their bluff and shown them up for what they are.
If Britain leaves, the EU is finished.
Slow and thick as the average European is, the question has been asked 'what actually is the EU for?' and if the answer is 'nothing we couldn't do better and cheaper ourselves by simply agreeing to among ourselves', well its goodnight Vienna for the EU.

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Ah - that's good then. So after we leave with no agreement private companies can still trade goods with no restrictions?

On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 11:40:27 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
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And for the Brexiteers next little argument against the UK having to abide by the rules of others
https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/rulesneg_e/rulesneg_e.htm
Although it will be a while before the WTO gets around to factoring in tax havens, so we will not be leaving that union in a hurry.
AB

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Really is funny when these 'sovereignty' Brexiteers complain of an EU country breaking EU rules. But of course are very happy to see the likes of Rees Mogg bend UK ones when it comes to paying taxes.
Quite understandable if all Brexiteers were as rich as Rees Mogg, but get the impression many on here are poor as the proverbial church mouse. Perhaps they think by supporting their betters they'll get a few crumbs from the master's table?

On 14/07/2018 14:45, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
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Do you believe what they say here when they lie about the EU and brexit?

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I try not to believe lies. Leave that to Trump supporters. ;-)