OT: Speakers

[John Rumm]

Forgive the OT post, but for obvious reasons I don't want to venture into a real HiFi group ;-)

For many years I have had great service and enjoyment from a pair of Heybrook HB100 speakers. These are toward the larger end of what you could describe as "bookshelf" speakers (2 way, 8" main driver). They managed to sound very controlled, open, and dynamic. Music really came alive, and did not seem to suffer from any feeling of being compressed (I hate audio compression!) Each change of room or location has been fine up until now...

Moving them into a new listening room (17'x14'x10') that is substantially bigger (with a further 13'x9' off the side through an archway) I was expecting the same room filling thrilling results, but instead have been a bit disappointed. No amount of repositioning, or other fiddling seems to get anything close to the sound they produced in previous rooms - they lack the sense of power and weight, and the bass extension sounds thin and light. Used for home cinema when augmented by four other speakers and an active sub they still create impact, but on their own for music listening, they just don't seem to shift enough air.

Hence I was looking for any recommendations for suitable replacements. Thinking probably floorstanding. Not looking to spend a fortune (second hand is fine), but want something that can deliver a big but controlled sound. I have not really read any HiFi comics for years and hence have little feel for what to audition / search eBay for. What do you suggest?

[meow2222]

I cant say I ever found those hifi mags to be as helpful as they sound, my best finds were mostly kit that they never mentioned. So the bad news from this little corner is just go listen, see what you find.

The other problem is that the descriptive words are too vague to know what you mean, let alone have any ability to translate them into physical characteristics to look for. I dont know how much you know on this subject, and therefore whether you know what types of designs to look for and what to steer away from.

Sorry I dont have a better answer... there just isnt enough info there to base one on. The onyl thing I could offer is that if all the system lacks is power, a 2nd identical pair could resolve that - but it doesnt sound like that's the issue. Recommending a speaker system is just not possible without knowing what you do and don't want & like.

I expect someone else will offer some more concrete recommendation, but its likely to just be what they personally like.

NT

[Mike Barnes]

I wonder if you might be missing the resonance of a smaller, squarer room. The same might have happened with any speaker.

[John]

You haven't reversed the polarity of one have you? (one pushing whilst other is pulling?)

[Dave Baker]

It's been a long time since I was really into Hi Fi but I suspect the fact that the room has an extension through an archway rather than just being an enclosed box is causing your problem. Some of the sound will be dissipating out into it and the vibrations will be doing odd things in such a shape. It might be worth trying to position them facing away from this but you might just need bigger speakers to fill all of this new space. Speaker choice is too personal to know what to recommend though. What sounds good in the shop doesn't always in the home and vice versa. You also don't say what amp you have which will be another factor. It's better to have an amp that's got plenty in reserve when it's driving the speakers hard than a small amp trying to supply speakers it can't really handle.

FWIW I have a pair of KEF Celeste IVs, NAD 3020 amp and a Regar Planar 2 all of which were chosen very carefully between 20 and 30 years ago and none of which I've ever regretted. All I really need is a detached house where I can actually turn it all up properly without the neighbours going nuts.

Just as an experiment maybe you can block the archway temporarily with a couple of old doors or even some thick curtains and see what happens.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I suspect the real issue was that the old room had a nice bass resonance just below where the bookshelf speakers started to fade out.

What is needed is a good pair of 12-15" units in large cabinets. And use the bookshelfs for mid/top.

[Rob]

Can't blame you - tend to have little to do with listening to music.

I'd suggest trying a subwoofer - something from say REL or MJ Acoustics. Your local hifi shop should loan one out. Definitely try before you buy.

In my case (a mid-range REL/little main speakers in a smaller room) it certainly does something to the power/weight/bass sides of things.

Rob

[John Rumm]

Last time I went seriously shopping for HiFi (prolly 16+ years ago) the mags were ok for shortlisting some things to listen to, and did not seem to be quite so far up their collective backsides as now. But speaker wise I just settled myself into Sevenoaks HiFi for the afternoon and let them fetch and carry until they produced something we liked.

Well, indeed. I can add a little detail - and will do here and to other posts. Partly it was in hope that someone would have encountered and fixed a similar situation.

I appreciate the basic styles of design, but don't claim any particular domain expertise.

Obviously putting into words what I like is not trivial ;-)

Which is fair enough...

[John Rumm]

I have used the heybrooks in a few rooms prior - some as tall. Sometimes on wall brackets, but usually on a pair of 24" stands. While the room has had an effect obviously - it was never this dramatic before.

I have a second listening room setup here; its about 13'x11'x10' and has a pair of Kef Coda 8 speakers hanging off a Kenwood KA3020 (original, not special edition). They sound great in that room and are capable of projecting a credible base into the space. These are slightly smaller cabinets than the heybrooks, however they are rear ported as well. I did try these in the big room, and sure enough they sound just as weedy there as the Heybrooks. (generally their sounds is similar to the Heybrooks - quite good on detail, very easy open dynamics).

[John Rumm]

No, and yes... as in no, they are correct, but out of interest I have swapped it once to see what effect it had - the answer was surprisingly little.

[John Rumm]

Room is shaped thus:

=========================================== # | TV | # - |__________| # | # | # | # | # - # # # ==========||-------||=====# SP SP # # # ### p p p p p p p p \---------/ p ||Couch || p

p ### # # # # # =====================================================================

p = patio doors

SP = Speakers - current about 4' away from the back wall (against it does not help either)

facing away is alas a layout that is not really going to work

Got a choice of two amps: a Kenwood KA3020SE, and a Arcam Alpha 7R. The kenwood is only 25W RMS but does tend to punch well above its weight. The Arcam is something like 50W RMS IIRC. There is slightly more weight with the Arcam, although the overall quality may surprisingly still lean a little toward the Kenwood.

The archway is rather wide (prolly 8'). Note sure what it would prove masking it off, since I was not planning on bricking it up ;-)

[John Rumm]

I have a Rel Q50 (which is also a bit undersized for the room!), but it does not really add enough of what is missing...

Yup, I appreciate the difference it can make - in previous rooms I never found it necessary for music listening, but for films it certainly added to the overall effect very well (and to be fair - its still not bad - as I commented elsewhere AV performance is better than audio only currently)

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Which means you have severe reflections within the room. With a mono source and the speakers in phase the sound should appear to come from one (phantom) speaker sited between them. Out of phase - spread all over, so nowhere in particular. I take it you have no carpet and sparse drapes and furnishings?

[ARWadsworth]

I have a pair of speakers collecting dust in my loft. If you want to try them out be my guest. I will be working in Mersham in the New Year. I can even get my step ladders out and nip up and have a look and tell you what make and model they are (and measure them for you) if you want. They were given to me by a serious audiophile and I have never had any use for them.

Adam

[meow2222]

I forget whether you've tried positioning them relatively close to the listener, it can fix a few ills with small speakers that might be described as you do.

Knowing whether you like bass reflex or not certainly saves time.

no :) Listening to deliberately distorted samples also showed me that interpreting from listening experience to the physical nature of the problem is far from simple either - as an example, bass lines with added harmonics frequently sound clearer and more relaxed, whereas undistorted they can sound somewhat distorted!

... but doesnt get you where you want to go. If it were down to my taste I'd avoid anything bookshelf sized, such things are always very compromised. If you want high quality tweeting I'd look for non-moving coil tweets, but I get the impression you dont want to spend that much. At the budget end, piezo tweeters can sound reasonably good if they're tamed, despite their awful tech specs - but then coil tweeters dont have good tech specs either.

Its easy to ramble... I wouldnt consider ebay btw, you need to hear what you're getting.

NT

[John Rumm]

I have tried them closeish (7' perhaps) probably not far from where I currently have them.

When it can still keep the base tight and not let it flop all over the place, then I don't mind. My Kef Coda 8s for example are rear ported and still manage to sound tidy and maintain good imaging.

The HB100s are 10" wide, 18" tall, and about 12" deep and in past rooms at least deliver a fairly non compromising sound. They were a reasonable mid range speaker in their day. Cost was about £300 at the time IIRC (so prolly £450 in today's money). Their main weakness previously was they are getting a little stiffer in old age, and now need a good 30 mins to warm up and sound at their best.

Well, its easy enough to buy, audition, and flog again ;-)

For example I am quite tempted to try an old pair TDL RTL 2s big floor standing ported design with reflex transmission line design. They used to get rave review back in the early / mid 90's but were always far too big for my needs at the time.

(we are well sited for decent HiFi shops though in these parts... Rayleigh HiFi is just up the road, and there is a branch of Sevenoaks not far away either).

[John Rumm]

Perhaps I should clarify my comment a bit - it made no difference in the sense of not improving the sound - hence it confirmed that I was not accidentally cancelling out most of the base information. I did not sit down and assess the imaging or any other effects of the change - it was more of a check that I had not something silly.

No, quite the reverse; thick carpet, large expanse of curtains across a

3.5m patio window, sofa, chairs, textured wallpaper etc.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Sounds like you want a decent bass speaker to fill the room with pressure. Probably the sub 200hz is pretty wrecked.

Transmission lines are GREAT for organs, total crap for bass drum or guitar..

Stiff cone, compliant surround, big magnet, and a big box. That's really all there is to bass..

All the detail is in the mid range and the tweet.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Ah - sorry. To use bass cancellation as a guide to phasing the speakers need to be close together.

Which at least should give decent imaging.

[John Rumm]

Yes, that is ok it has to be said.