OT: Paging the Arborists

[T i m]

Hi All,

Our 17 year old daughter is still looking for her ideal career and trying different things out when she can. She doesn't want a 9-5 commuting job, quite likes the 'outdoors' so yesterday spent a day with three Arborists (mates of a mate of mine).

They took down a 60' Cedar and she mainly humped branches to the chipper, help re lowering the chunks of trunk as the climber lopped them and helped tidy / clear the site.

Afterwards the boss told me he was very impressed with her, liked the fact he was working with someone "who had brains for a change" and is even willing to offer her an apprenticeship. ;-)

So, as it happens we are very close to a Horticultural College, she's happy to do day-release (and already has their prospectus) to get the various certificates and in spite of being pretty stiff today, loved the whole deal.

Apparently they even let her do a bit of rope climbing and were impressed with her determination (she climbed to the top of the rope) in spite of it being at the end of a fairly long and tiring day.

So, anyone out there 'been there done that' and have any general thoughts / tips / advice on the subject please?

All the best ..

T i m

[somebody]

In message , T i m writes

I would have thought the three arborists (mates of a mate of yours) would be a useful first port of call?

On a more helpful note, a friend of mine is an arborist. He has been trying for 15 years to get into 'consultancy' but is still stuck climbing trees. He recognises that his ability to climb trees is purely down to his fitness/age etc and won't last forever. Even knowing that, he still can't seem to find his way past that next hurdle.

(He is an intelligent, self motivated chap BTW).

There are also the physical dangers of climbing, one slip, even without a fall can be deadly. You're hanging on a rope using a chainsaw, which you and me and most others would be treating with fear and respect even with two feet on the ground.

Wouldn't recommend it.

Hth Someone

[AJH]

This all sounds familiar, I've been involved with trees, forestry more than arboriculture, and what you say is my view also. Those half dozen or so, especially the entertainers and showmen, that get into consultancy and expert witness mode via running a contract business and getting the RFS professional diploma do earn a professional wage.

The rest of us over compete with each other because the supply of work is dependant on council budgets and people with large gardens with a propensity to "have their trees done" on a regular basis. The colleges churn out new climbers every year, when I started very few of us had the ability to climb and we would have similar turnover to a GP, now it's less than a truck driver!

Trudging branch wood out to a chipper is one of the most gutty jobs I have experienced, lifting chogs into a truck gives long term back ache. Diversifying when you're over 50 is problematical and yes I do still help out occasionally on a tree surgery gang of which the youngest is 46, the climber is 50 and I'm by far the eldest, our output is a fraction of what it was 20 years ago!

AJH

[T i m]

Well they probably would be but I don't have any contact details for two of the three and I didn't want to burden the other one (my mates mate) with loads of questions at this point. Plus, hopefully asking here might get me some other opinions.

Hmm, ok, and the sort of feedback I was looking for (thanks).

Of course, he is your friend. ;-)

As can looking at someone the wrong way on the train these days ... :-(

Understood 100%. However I'm not sure what percentage of the time that would be the case (the chainsaw risk thing)? Thinking ahead, I guess there could be room for a 'Lady Arborist' to do more of the planting, diagnosis and smaller tree work (maybe with hand tools), calling in 'the lads' when there are bigger jobs on offer (if she chooses to more than any physical limitations as such)?

No, I must admit it's not my first choice for her but she seems keen on and it might just end up as more of a paying hobby if her writing takes off [1] or finds something else that could be done in-between?

Yep, it does thanks, as hopefully will the trip we are due to make to the Horticultural College soon on their open day.

All the best ..

T i m

p.s. Another mates mate had a small Tree Surgery firm and recently folded it. Too much red tape / insurance costs etc etc.

[1] She has a regular column in a local free rag.

[T i m]

Ah (and with the price of fuel now I guess that's going down as well) :-(

Yep, she's still stiff ;-)

Thanks for that AJH.

It all helps (me at least) see the bigger picture.

T i m.

[Dave Liquorice]

Ask how many qualified arborist/forestry students they turn out each year.

Reading between the lines of the other posts it appears that there aren't that many youngsters taking up the job. It is hard physical labour out in the cold and wet, youngsters don't like that anymore. This will lead to shortage of people able to do the job, leading to higher charges.

Getting established now rather than try a fight with every Tom Dick and Harriette who sees the high charges in a few years time could pay off.

[T i m]

True. Her ex did some work experience at Homebase and left after a couple of days as he thought "it was slave labour" ;-)

Well, there's another pov, thanks Dave.

If nothing else, if this gets her back into College (even if only for day release), some extra qualifications (even if only in safe practice with a chainsaw ) and a bit more 'worldly experience' (helping her lacking confidence) then it can't all be bad?

All the best ..

T i m

[Mary Fisher]

...

Well, none of the people in this house (a 21 yo woman, 69yo Spouse and me) are not frightened of using any chainsaw - or any other machinery - why should we be? Respect is a different matter and safe handling is taught. I've watched men cutting limbs off the large trees opposite our house (when a silly neighbour has objected to them) and I was very impressed by their skill, thoughtfulness and intelligent approach. To my shame I used to think that such people were merely hackers.

Tim, your chosen life might not have been your parents' first choice for you but if they'd tried to prevent you doing what you wanted how would you hve reacted?

I'm pleased that your daughter has enough sense to have a mind of her own and was prepared to have a go, very many young people don't, they want life to be handed to them. Any boy or girl deserves praise for having an idea and pursuing it. If you try to stop her you're not the man I thought you were.

She might change her mind, that's up to her and nobody else.

Mary

[T i m]

I bet you have Mary!

I would have listened to them and then used that information up against by own needs and desires. Like, she had an idea about starting a dog walking service but I think we talked her out of it as the 'risks' (as we saw them and she didn't, like a dog under your care getting free or attacked etc) were not worth the potential remuneration.

Yup, as we are too.

Absolutely and as few of us can really predict the outcome / future. However, we do know that (statically) she is at a greater risk on her scooter than she might be in a car or more likely to get hurt with a chainsaw than a WP.

I think you already know I'm more of a Man that you could handle!

Of course, except I do have a care of duty and therefore expected to at least explain the risks and ready her for the world the best I can.

btw. Who do you think set her up with the day in the first place? ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

[Mary Fisher]

Only because they were doing a good job. It's not my usual pastime - life's too short to waste on trivia :-)

...

Giving the benefit of your experience isn't the same thing as talking her out of it. Reasoned arguments come to be respected, trying to persuad someone that X is a bad course can be counter-productive.

What training is given to work on a WP? I bet there are risks ...

Whereas a rider has to have at least basic training to ride a motor scooter over a certain size even when, as Spouse has, the rider has many years of riding much bigger bikes with no accidents.

I haven't met that man yet ...

Quite, but as I said that's not the same as talking her out of it.

I thought you said you did ... which made me wonder why you're askiing for advice here ...

Mary

[T i m]

Agreed (and where did I say I had any intention of talking her out of it)?

Unless it actually is.

.. like eyestrain .. or chemical exposure possibly (like when you had to get the Tipex off your CRT that time).

Keep up, *every* rider these days ...

Not sure what that has to do with the actual risk factor though?

You don't need to be coy Mary .. ;-)

Quite, and I wasn't ..

Ok, I'm not sure what advice has to do with talking someone out of something but ...

So.

Daughter comes up with the idea of Tree Surgery and runs the idea past me (as she does with most things).

I mention I know a mates mate is in that field and I will see if I can set something up for her.

We were lucky in that 1) He had a suitable big job on (that needed a few hands) 2) that it was in a private garden (no extra red tape re her being there) 3) the guy was willing to take responsibility for her and 4) willing to 'show her the ropes' , all given he was there to do a job etc.

She did the job, liked it very much and has done further research re taking it further.

In the background her old Dad though he'd see if he could get a bit of a handle on the 'bigger picture' from other independent parties actually involved in the trade (hence the OT: in the subject). Any d-i-y feedback would also be welcomed and expected! ;-)

HTH

All the best ..

T i m

p.s. If the price is right I'm wondering if basic tree climbing aids can be found easily and that would be something she might appreciate and enjoy. There is a fairly local place that has climbing facilities but I'm not sure how suitable they are (wall / rock rather than trees) or if they accept individuals (only looks like they take groups etc).

The bottom line is I'm not sure she is likely to be any higher or at any more risk than I was as a kid climbing up all sorts of things?

[AJH]

She's likely to be a fair bit higher but less risk from the climbing, the techniques taught now mean that you are always tied in and suspended, as you throw a loop ahead of you, a bit different from the

60s when a chap would climb to the top and come down chopping branches off one handed! The major hazards are associated with the machinery, falling masses and shock loads on your anchor points. Lesser hazards such as tripping, eye injury, hearing problems and being struck by traffic increase risk.

AJH

[Cicero]

================================== You're obviously a caring and supportive parent able to indulge your daughter to some extent. However, it's worth pointing out that many 17+ year olds are nearly two years into their working lives and it may be time for you to give your daughter a gentle nudge in the direction of a firm choice even if it's not her 'ideal' career. It's only a small step from eager and willing 17 year old to feckless 20 year old job-hopper. I wouldn't want to kill off any genuine aspirations but a bread-and-butter qualification / job is often the best basis for branching out into a more satisfying career.

Perhaps a commitment to a full-time course at the local Horticultural College with occasional days at tree surgery would be a good start.

Cic.

[Mary Fisher]

I didn't say that you did. You did, however, mention talking her out of the dog walkiing ... :-)

? What's Tipex?

First time I heard of a 49cc being included - but I could be wrong. There's a first time for everything :-)

Not my style!

Oy!Stop being so hung up on talking her out of anything :-)

...

Nor even me. When I look at those Flamborough cliffs now though I can't understand how I climbed up anmd down them when I was eight.

Mary

[T i m]

Yup. Not having a mortgage or any debts helps. ;-)

True and I think we have tried (re the 3D Design BTEC). However that turned out to be 3 months wasted. :-(

Agreed and trust me we have tried to guide / suggest things along that line but as yet to no avail. She really doesn't like being in the current main stream education system, because, mostly, she is surrounded by immature kids. Even at college (where she assumed folk would want to be there etc) a cup of chocolate bought from machine would rarely get completely drunk because someone would find it 'funny' to put something in it (and it wasn't just hers etc). It was all we could do to stop her actually punching the offenders in the face.

Well, that is the way we would like to point her Cic but I fear she may end up in the same position as she did at school, something not uncommon with 'bright' kids (highest girl achiever key stage 3, highest GCSE results for any girl in her school, highest music qualifications for any pupil in her school, all her art on the walls, offer to be put forward for NAGTY etc etc).

Even the guy she did the tree work with reflected that she would already probably be 6 months ahead of any of the other students at the college re some of the skills on day one? Maybe some of that is down to the fact I've never turned her away when she's offered to 'help', even from a kid (I still have some of her MIG welding from when she was 8). Just last week she cut the overgrown garden back next door with my petrol brush cutter, cut down a bush first with the hedge trimmer then saber saw for the heavier bits. She then dug up the stump and roots with a fork, spade and her hands (whilst rescuing creatures along the way ). Later she replaced the instrument console on her

125 cc scooter (speedo now on mph) then soldered up a kitchen timer project (with little or no help / reminders from me). She has also recently built her own new PC and bricked up a flue terminal hole. *I'm* not suggesting she's any genius and is still 'young' in many ways but I can see the problems she may suffer whilst being taught anything with a batch of 'others' of her own age (and probably why she really enjoyed the company of these three 30+ year olds)?

All the best ..

T i m

[T i m]

Ok. I think I was thinking re some 'informal' rope climbing practice, down the local park etc (once we have all the basic procedures in place etc).

Indeed!

Understood.

Before we sent her off for the day I gave her some ear defenders, eye protection and a range of gloves (just in case). As it happens she only used her own gloves as she was issued a combined helmet, face guard and ear protection. If / when she failed to put it on when walking back into a risk area (after a break etc) she was reminded in short notice.

She mentioned to me that over the day she even learned to prompts you get from the various things and sounds going on around her. Like if when she walked back to the tree from the chipper, if she heard the chainsaw running there was a fair chance it might be shortly followed by some descending timber. Even if it was quiet she would still get the attention of whoever was up the tree before going anywhere near the base (and they were doing the same from up the tree of course).

They even put her in some chain saw trousers for the quick go she had on the saw.

She is currently up the shops with her boyfriend looking for some cheap long sleeved 'work shirts' to protect her arms from the scratches she came back with on Saturday if she helps him again (it was hot and she just had a short sleeved shirt and combats on).

All the best ..

T i m

p.s. She just rang to ask if it was 'OK' to buy a basic waterproof (boys) jacket .. it was in a sale and £4.99 ;-)

[T i m]

Correct, because we are still (legally / morally) responsible for her.

That correcting fluid stuff ... though you probably make your own out of crushed chickens beaks or summat? ;-)

CBT, if you are a new rider (even if an existing new driver etc). ie If you had yer car licence before 2001 or summat you don't need to do the CBT to ride a 'moped'.

Zakley

All the best ..

T i m

[Mary Fisher]

You must mean Tippex, it's not used on computers though ... well, not in the north :-)

Spouse had to. Perhaps the regs have changed in the last few years.

Mary

[Mary Fisher]

We went recently to grand-daughter's Parents' Evening at her college because her parents live in France (she lives with us while at college). We were lost for words at the low level of expected achievements. I asked for the syllabus and couldn't believe how basic it was. The behaviour of the other students (as well as some of the tutors) wouldn't have been tolerated even in my primary school.

This has been happening for some time. A son wouldn't collect his MA because he has no respect for it when he realised that almost just being on the course was enough to graduate. He'd put his heart and soul into his work and funded himself, he believed that he had earned the qualification and so do we. He was 24 then, he's now 40.

Mary

[T i m]

Yup .. :-(

. I asked for the

Understood. But in your day you would get the cane for writing with your left hand wouldn't you?

Same as our daughter. Wasn't interested in going to the presentation evening as it was "all pointless".

Like a recent discussion about the Scouts ... it seems you get a couple of badges for just turning up these days?

All the best ..

T i m