OT: in fact there is already a customs border.

From tweets today:
A car load of cigs and booze intercepted by Repubic of Ireland customs while crossing from the UK- And Barnier, Coveney and Varadkar et al say there is no border - The EU is running a scam to keep us in the EU customs Union.
Why do @EU_Commission and Republic of Ireland Government insist that there is no border, when there are legitimate seizures of illegal goods?
1000 litres heating oil for £460 in Northern Ireland - 1000 litres heating oil in Republic of Ireland e710 or £621.43 - A saving of £161 for the fill of UK oil but if the Irish customs catch you bringing the oil over the border its big trouble - Yet they say there is no border.
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On 20/05/2018 19:19, Tim Streater wrote:

The external customs duty on all of those items is exactly the same in every EU country, which is what is meant by not having a customs border. However, each of those goods is also liable to excise duty, which can vary from country to country. It is attempts to evade excise duty that lead to such seizures; nothing to do with the customs union.
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Still policed by customs officers, however. Who may decide to stop vehicles crossing the border. To state that its excise duty rather than customs is just an exercise in pedantry; the effect on the driver is the same.
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On 19:55 20 May 2018, Tim Streater wrote:

I think he's pointing out that any inspection is to enforce a tax (duty) imposed by the UK.
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Not when it's done on the Republic's side of the border by one of their customs officers.
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On Sun, 20 May 2018 20:56:03 +0100, pamela wrote:

"You stupid woman!" - John Bercow
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On 20/05/2018 19:55, Tim Streater wrote:

They don't routinely stop every vehicle; just the ones they suspect, often based upon information received, are being used to try to avoid excise duty. Legitimate carriers of those goods will not be stopped.

It is an important difference. Excise duty is an internal tax and only applies to alcohol, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils. Customs duty applies to everything crossing the border.

Only the very few they stop. Most can drive straight across, without let or hindrance.
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wrote:

But hey, let's not let well reasoned argument or fact get in the way of a fanatical Brexiteer! ;-)
Tim wants out and for reasons many many people wouldn't even consider valid even if they did consider them in the first place. However, they wouldn't allow them to justify a complete leap into the dark (and possibly dark ages). ;-(
I wonder how each of the fanatical Brexiteers would tally up re what they thought their vote was supposed to represent (other than the stock 'We want out' mantra) ... if there was actually a price they wouldn't be willing for us all to pay if it didn't work out as they guessed / hoped / dreamed it would?
The frightening thought is that for some, there is no cost limit (financial or otherwise). That's fanaticism for you though eh. ;-(
Cheers, T i m
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and Republic of Ireland Government insist that

except that this particular fact gets in the way of the fanatical Remoaner's position
The fact that there is currently a hard border, that doesn't actually get used very often, should mean that a solution to the RoI borer problem of - a hard bolder that doesn't actually get used very often, should be an acceptable solution to the problem.
but oh no, the EU/RoI don't see it that way, only a zero border will do.
If that's not having your cake and eating it I don't know what is.
tim
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On 21/05/2018 10:15, tim... wrote:

One that only exists in your head, because you are determined to argue that catching potential evaders of an internal tax is the same thing as applying external customs duty to everything that crosses the border, which it isn't. It is probably more convenient for the excise officers to spot possible offenders where they enter the country but, if they have similar powers as UK excise officers, they could arrest them anywhere.
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and Republic of Ireland Government insist that

with a 100% FTA there will be no external customs duty to collect
But even if there is, it can still be collected the same way cross border duty is. By shippers supplying the correct details of the load on the manifest, using sealed transit travelling a pre-registered route and by customs officials making spot checks for compliance (which because the load is sealed doesn't have to take place at the border)
Of course there will be a marginal extra cost that companies won't be able to combine a part load for somewhere in NI with a part load for somewhere in RoI, but given the small size of NI that's hardly likely to be a major issue.

yep
tim
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On 21/05/2018 09:38, T i m wrote: ...

If they were susceptible to reasoned argument, they wouldn't have voted leave in the first place.
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I haven't heard any yet. The standard fare is sneers, name-calling, and put-downs.
I'm still waiting to hear why the EU is not an oligarchy and why its form of government is so wonderful. I also am waiting to be told which is the official opposition party in the EU Parliament, and where the Shadow Commission is for us to be able to vote in to replace the current lot at some point.
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On Mon, 21 May 2018 16:49:30 +0100, Tim Streater

I'm waiting to hear that it is and *exactly* how we *will* be better off if you take the *action* of moving from the status quo.
It's not for those 'not interested' in changing from the status quo to prove it to those who do.

You need to lobby your local MP on that one. That is the democratic way. Not running away and not having any say in any of it (as we *will* still be very bound by much of it, no matter what you (and your minority) *hope* for).
Cheers, T i m
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On 21/05/2018 16:49, Tim Streater wrote:

That's true brexiteers have no other arguments so result to name calling and other insults.
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wrote:

Corse none of you stupid remoaners ever do anything like that, eh ?
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Very true. As you'd expect from Farage and Rees Mogg.

Why would you want a party system in a body designed to administer a union? And how would you devise it since there are no true pan European parties?
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wrote:

True ... ;-(
The thing is .... we are now several months on and I personally have no idea if we are near anything that could be considered a 'solution' or not and if we end up without one, where we stand after that (apart from 'on our own' I mean).
You might think (hope) that by now it would be clearer what's going on and because the picture is getting clearer it would be more obvious to all those who didn't vote the leave (eg ~2/3rds of the electorate) and more would be behind the leave cause.
But that simply hasn't happened and so many of us are still asking for the perfectly reasonable democratic opportunity to vote, once we know the details of what we are voting for represent.
It's only those petrified that that vote won't go their way (the way of a minority) that are against it as it would simply be real 'educated / sensible' democracy in action (or closer to what it is supposed to be) ... and further, the duty of those we elected to represent us to ensure any outcome is actually the best for *us* (where 'us' would ideally be at least 2/3rds (not 1/3rd) of the electorate).
If there isn't enough interest or more importantly, 'good reason' *to* change from the status quo, we simply don't do it. <shrug>
We shouldn't do anything because a minority of fanatics say (but can't prove beyond reasonable doubt) that it *will* be the best thing for 'us'.
Cheers, T i m
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well we were
Until this RoI border nonsense reared it head because someone thought that they could leverage making a big deal of it into getting us to "stay in" (FSVO).
And the end result of which is that we are more likely to end up walking away with no deal, than we ever were

No deal means 12 hour long queues at Calais as well as at Dover
No BA flights from the UK to Germany will also mean no LH flights from Germany to the UK
all of the problems of "no deal" are reciprocal
A deal to avoid that will be cobbled together if it looks likely

The problem is that it's not clear, because HMG doesn't have a majority.
And the Parliamentarians *wrongly* think that they are each entitled to a super vote that overrules the result of the referendum.

But a pre-decision to do that (in the way that you mean it) would just let the EU decide to give us a poor deal so that we would vote to stay in
I'm sorry but the result of the referendum was that we should leave
IMHO if there is to be a second referendum on the deal then both options on the ballot must result in leaving. Anything else disrespects the original vote

No
It's because it fundamentally disrespects the referendum
I would happily accept a vote for
shall we stay in the SM
shall we stay in the CU
as part of the deal
but all options on a future ballot MUST result in the previously decided vote to leave.
tim
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wrote:

So you say. I've yet to see anything other than just how much damage limitation we have negotiated for ourselves? 'The People' are pretty well just as split / confused / dismayed / frustrated by the whole farce as they were when it was first sprung on them.

Brilliant. That sounds like the result of an ill thought out and poorly implemented and supported 'plan' if ever I saw one. ;-(

The practicalities are irrelevant, it's the much bigger question of 'will we *actually* be better off' if / when we leave the EU? As yet, *no one* of any real credibility has said we will, just that it might not be out of the question. Great (not). ;-(

See above ... whilst considering we are a very small cog in a very big wheel and out of the EU, we are just a loose cog in a big box.

See above ... what a brilliant way to be managing our future ...

Quite, just when you thought it couldn't get any more of a clusterf*ck. ;-(

The rules are the rules.

If that is the will of the people then so be it? What is it about the Brexiteers that they think they have all the *right* answers here ... especially in light of the complete lack of guarantees to back up any of their (what is no more than) hopes and dreams (prejudices / zealotry)?

Yes, you should be sorry if you think that farce get's even close to representing democracy. We, 'the people' did not as a majority (of the electorate) vote unanimously to leave. A tiny majority voted leave than actually voted to remain but they still account for only 1/3rd of the electorate. No matter how you try and call / twist it, that *isn't'* the will of the people, just a subset therefore and nearly the same number who actually voted NOT TO leave the EU.
Would I base any major change to anything on that sort of result? No I f'ing wouldn't, *especially* if it was supposed to be representing the best outcome for *everyone* (where ITRW, 'everyone' should represent at least 2/3rds of those affected).

What? What sort of democracy is that FFS!?

Assuming you respect the original vote ... and many don't (especially me).

Yes ... if not, why not hold a second referendum ... once as many of the facts are known as possible?You don't want to because you have picked up a tenner and you hope no one noticed, not because you gained it honestly. "£360M could go to the NHS instead". Disingenuous slimy b*stards.

I disrespect the referendum as it was a scam and does not represent the will of the people. If it did, a second referendum would back up the result of the first and the Fanatical Brexiteers shouldn't be at all afraid of that.

I would happily vote on any *fact*, not just some fanatics hopes and dreams.

You are weird and would make an excellent Kamikaze pilot. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
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