OT. Excluding the technically illiterate?

Hi all,
We arrived at a hospital car park today <g> to find we were unable to access the pay machine we found ourselves next to because of elderly gentleman who was obviously having issues.
Does *anyone* ever test these things on anyone other than geeks to see how they cope? ;-(
The poor guy was trying to enter his vehicle reg (from a scrap of paper in his hand) and was tapping on the key / buttons with his fingernail ... but nothing was happening. He was obviously confused because these were obviously actual buttons (or looked like such) rather than a touch screen and no matter how hard he tapped or pushed he got nothing. ;-(
So, I tried to press one of the buttons with my finger (assuming the terminal was broken) and it worked, so I reset the terminal and suggested he use his actual finger, rather than his nail. Except now, he's held his finger on the key longer than those of us who are familiar with such things might and the f-ing thing auto repeats! So now he's got a whole screen full of R's and obviously can't hear the beeps as each key is taken, or able to read the screen easily to see what he's doing, as he's doing it.
So, after every one of his over extended key entries, I'm on the delete key, removing the surplus repetitions for him.
After allowing him to enter the entire reg and checking it with him, we pressed 'Ok' and he was, like many we have seen, very surprised / frustrated that no ticket was issued. I wonder what part of the (partially obscured) 'Pay and Register' Car park sign he missed?
"How do I know it's worked" he asked. "You don't, we replied". ;-(
He was there to visit his daughter and was obviously already distressed by doing that in the first place.
And they give these people the option of paying by phone (whilst standing in a noisy car park) or using the smart phone app! Yeah, hospital car parks are generally full of switched on youth ...
Going back to the main issue here, WTF would anyone decide the auto repeat function should be left / turned on on a car park payment terminal! How many people have that many repeated characters on their vehicle reg that it would ever be an advantage?
OOI, could this go against some sort of exclusions / equalities rules, as had this guy not managed to pay within 15 minutes of driving though the car park entrance he'd receive a £60 PCN for his confusion (and would probably pay it is unless someone more 'switched on' could help him appeal it).
Cheers, T i m
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On 21/12/2017 23:52, T i m wrote:

I know you were venting and didn't expect an answer, but ... Help is at hand, although it's still a while away. The European Accessibility Act will require that accessibility is considered in the design of most products and services, and will use a slightly modified version of the W3C Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (amongst other things), as embedded in EN301549, as the technical requirements. OOI the Web and Mobile Applications Directive is already published and will use a Harmonised development of EN301549.
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Yes but as we won't be in the Eu by then.. One thing also to bear in mind here is that several results of actions trying to get money from people who won't pay have failed due to it being private land and the signage and systems being used are just not usable, or often even checked regularly. The company making the charge in most hospital cases is not the hospital its a private contractor. Indeed our local health centre car park seems to have given up now. the idea there is that every car coming in has its plate imaged and the person registering simply has to select their number from a series of pictures. The problems started very early, ie nobody not even the system could ocr the number plates. Two reasons. Low angle sun in winter, and Pigeon poo on the camera. Brian
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On 22/12/2017 08:15, Brian Gaff wrote:

The local Tesco has such a system.. You type in a few letters and it presents you with some pictures and you press the one that is yours and pay or enter the free parking code you get from the till. It appears to work, probably because they put attendants on the machines to show people how it worked for the first month or so.
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On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 08:21:25 +0000, "dennis@home"

Seemed to work easily when I first came across it at Housesteads Fort carpark on Hadrians Wall a couple of months back,but that was nice bright sunny day, I wonder how well the system works with snow and muck covered numberplates.
At least they didn't require the reg to be entered in Roman numerals . Thought that was pretty considerate thing to do for us.
G.Harman
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On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 08:49:09 +0000, damduck-egg wrote:

#TIL
That Wallsend Metro station has bilingual signage. English and Latin.
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On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 08:49:09 +0000, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

Don't give them ideas!

Must have been an oversight.
Cheers, T i m
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On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 08:21:25 +0000, "dennis@home"

Same with another local hospital and has always worked for is and without needing any instruction (the screen is big and clear, it only requires 2-3 characters before your reg is visible on the screen and then you touch the reg on the screen and pay what it says).

This one is also 'nice' because it's in a well lit shelter so your glasses don't get wet whilst you are trying to read the T&C's etc.
At the first hospital in question, if you go to the nearest pay terminal between the car park and the hospital entrance, the nearest T&C's board is a good few meters away across the busy car park entry road / crossing (behind you)!
Cheers, T i m
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On 22-Dec-17 8:21 AM, dennis@home wrote:

I came across that at a park and ride car park, I think outside Cambridge. I found it very simple to use.
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On 22/12/2017 10:22, Nightjar wrote:

The Oxford park and ride interfaces are OK too. Provided you have sufficient coins, since half of them won't work.
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On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 08:15:25 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
Good point Brian. Hopefully it will come across anyway or they do cherry pick all the good things etc.

Quite.

Agreed. However, still the company is acting as a provider of a service for the hospital, rather than a stand-alone body as such.

They used to have that at our local Lidl.

LOL.

So, not 'real world' problems then eh ... <shrug>
Cheers, T i m
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On 22/12/2017 08:15, Brian Gaff wrote:

Leaving the EU won't make any difference to this because trade in products and services is international; therefore technical requirements need to be common across the widest possible trading block to enable economies of scale, skill re-use, wide customer choice, cross border interoperability, and much more. BSI will remain an active member of the European and international standardisation systems because (in the IT world, at least) there is no justification for unique national standards. It's not completely clear yet whether the UK will enact legislation to mirror the WAD and EAA, but I would be very surprised if they didn't. The drivers (ageing population, people working longer, the need for government to reduce cost, the rights issue (as embedded in the UNCRPD, which the UK has signed-up to), and more affect every developed country. There's also the change of attitude from one where the user is the cause of the accessibility / usability problem to one where it is the technology that is disabling ... the legislation should give this a push.
This is a very long way from DIY so I won't blather on any more. If you really want to know more then search for Web and Mobile Applications Directive, European accessibility act, W3C WCAG 2.0 & 2.1, BSI policy statement on BREXIT, look at the EDF website and (I presume but haven't checked) the RNIB site.
(Note: the latest draft of the EAA to come out of the European Council is a dog's dinner of a document with a lot of problems. Hopefully some of them will be fixed in Trilogue (the Council - Parliament - Commission negotiation process) that has just started.)
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EU gobbledegook Filled with sesquipedalia? (Sp?)
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On 25/12/2017 08:07, Cynic wrote:

Thanks for adding a new word to my vocabulary, I just hope I can remember it when I need it ;-)
All areas have a shorthand. In this case I think all the acronyms were defined in earlier responses.
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On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:17:08 +0000, snipped-for-privacy@aolbin.com wrote:
<snip> >> OOI, could this go against some sort of exclusions / equalities rules,

Well, I was hoping there might be *something*, albeit not a quick and easy solution as such. I mean. it's not like you would get many boycotting the hospital .. ;-(

Ok ...

http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_en/301500_301599/301549/01.01.01_60/en_301549v010101p.pdf
"5.7 Key repeat Where ICT with key repeat is provided and the key repeat cannot be turned off: a) the delay before the key repeat shall be adjustable to at least 2 seconds; and b) the key repeat rate shall be adjustable down to one character per 2 seconds."
I'm not sure if 2 seconds would have been enough in this case as it looked like he was trying to press a door bell rather than a keyboard key but It might have been. I knew he was hard of hearing (couldn't hear the feedback beeps or didn't know what they indicated if he did) but not deaf (as we were generally communicating ok) but he didn't seem to be able to 'get' what 'just press it briefly' meant ITRW, even after I showed him a few times. It's the sort of thing I would generally do by holding his finger and showing him manually but that's not the sort of thing you would typically do with a distraught / frustrated / angry stranger in a car park (I used to do it whilst showing people how to double-click a mouse when IT Training).
I couldn't use words 'quickly' or 'fast' as he might have felt I was talking about the data entry in general ... and I'm not sure 'tap the key' would have meant anything to someone having difficulty 'aiming' his finger on the key in the first place. (My Mum (87) is fairly proficient on her iPad, but she still doesn't really 'get' the subtlety of the 'tap' v 'press and hold' etc).
"5.8 Double-strike key acceptance Where a keyboard or keypad is provided, the delay after any keystroke, during which an additional key-press will not be accepted if it is identical to the previous keystroke, shall be adjustable up to at least 0,5 seconds."
Again, that may have helped it not fill the screen with characters so quickly but it would have all been that much easier if auto-repeat was turned off completely.
eg, Even if you did have a reg that had 3 repeated characters, would *you* use auto repeat to enter it in the first place (as they often overrun once they have started)?
Cheers, T i m
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On 22/12/2017 09:54, T i m wrote:

I'm impressed that you read it. It's not perfect, but it (and the HEN that's currently under development to support the WAD) are built around global best practice: W3C WCAG, Section 508 of the US rehabilitation act, the US ADA and others. Here's some bedtime reading in case you're in the mood to know more, ;-) http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-6147_en.htm
http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-15096-2017-INIT/en/pdf
https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/news/adoption-directive-accessibility-sector-bodies-websites-and-mobile-apps
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri LEX:32016L2102&from=EN
... and now back to DIY
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On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:35:25 +0000, snipped-for-privacy@aolbin.com wrote:
<snip>

<snip>

Well, I didn't read it all but this sort of thing (as an IT guy) is important to be and seeing people frustrated and upset for avoidable reasons really does upset me.
It makes me want to don a hi-vis jacket and provide the 'personal level of support (foc) that is obviously missing there.

Thanks. I will look though them later.

Hehe. I was helping the old guy myself so it sorta counts, especially here and these days! ;-)
Cheers, T i m
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No, but for some procedures you may get an option of which one to attend, and in this day and age where even something as mundane as flushing a public bog seems to generate a "Please ,please tell us how well we did" survey many hospitals generate similar pleadings somewhere along the way. That would present an opportunity to point out the concerns.
G.Harman
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wrote:

But its unlikely that anyone bothers to read any comments included.
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On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:59:50 +0000, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
<snip> >>Well, I was hoping there might be *something*, albeit not a quick and

True.

Well, I seem to have the ear of one of the people in the PALS dept as she seems to be reading my emails as she is replying to the specific comments, but I've yet to see if any of them spur any real action.
Another problem is, which of the things are down to the hospital / Estates, which are from the CPM (by design or default) and which determined by H&S / rules etc.
So, as I'm actually communicating with PALS, I'll see what they can come up with re answers to specific questions first.
Cheers, T i m
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