Open up brick arch without tears

Following gas fire removal, I want to open up a chimney breast back to the original (Victorian) brick arch. Had my BI round and he says this should be OK - *in theory* should all hold up after the infill is taken out, as I hoped.

However, I remember someone on Property Ladder trying this and ending up with a collapsing chimney breast!. So, I would like to re-inforce the old brickwork in some quick & easy way - just in case Will rake out and point up the old mortar in/around the vicinity, but I don't want to go as far as props & insert new lintel.

So I thought something like a rigid steel 4ft strap screwed just over top of the arch (to be plastered over) or my BI mentioned some sort of rod that insert into the mortar. Does anyone have any suggestions - what specifically should I ask for at my (clueless) builders merchants?.

The fireplace is about 5 '3" wide, the arched opening 3' 3" wide.

Thanks,

Egremont

Reply to
Egremont
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The BM won't know what you're talking about unless you tell them the right thing - in any case, this sort of thing is a bit unusual nowadays...

There is probably a piece of iron strip under the arch, which was put there originally to build up on. It isn't particularly load bearing, being 1" to 2" wide, and 1/4" thick. You may find that years of fires have loosened this up, together with the bricks above it. You can either gun in grout, or simply re-build the arch, re-using the bricks that came out. I assume you're keeping the chimney breast plastere finish?

Reply to
Chris Bacon

Hi,

just started opening a few fireplaces myself. I cut back the plaster up from the bottom until I found the first course of old bricks. These clearly are built as a lintle (similar to the ones over old windows with wedge shaped bricks). They also have soot on the bottom. The first course of new bricks came out easily without disturbing the old ones (the load on the lintle should hold them in place). IMHO if the lintle course seems loose it will need some ironwork/concrete lintle. But if in doubt, get a "pro" in. good luck Bax

Reply to
baxter basics

By asking here, I'm hoping to pin down exactly what to ask from he BM. No sign of any original strip, also I've removed the plaster up to about 6ft and will re-plaster.

All that I think is needed is something (to be defined) to fix in/on to help the old arch out a bit with the load. This should also help moderate any sideways forces generated by the re-instated arch onto the surrounding masonary, which I think might help. BTW the BI wasn't overly concerned by the situation - perhaps less so than me!.

Egremont.

Reply to
Egremont

theyre between brick courses, and typically not visible.

It sounds like typical Victorian construction, so its held up most of a century so far. Usual practice then was to insert a thin metal bar above the arch, so the arch didnt need to support anything but itself. That way the arch could be made very shallow.

The brickwork above is for the most part self supporting, the metal bar just supports the 3' wide triangle of bricks that arent self supporting.

I would be suprised if there were any problems if you removed the infill, so long as the mortar between the arch bricks and piers is sound first. Hopefully you understand this should be done in lime, not cement, to avoid future weakening of the whole structure.

NT

Reply to
meow2222

Quite possible, it may have been built up on a bent batten.

Shouldn't be needed, it's hardly holding up anything at all - theoretically about 10 bricks.

I should just point it up - if you really think it needs re- doing, just knock it out ad re-build it. You'll need a bit of sand, a bit of lime, and a bucket of sand, and a former. Just line the arch up on the former, make sure the mortar is packed into the joints, and dgo up from there, replacing th single brick last. How long's it lasted as it is, after all? Over

100 years!
Reply to
Chris Bacon

I've never seen that.

Yup.

Not sure why it's all that important in this case.

Reply to
Chris Bacon

I'm not really suprised that I'm on my own with the rigid re-inforcing bar notion...

I think a problem is unlikely, but I thought for the sake of it the above is worthwhile insurance, But, maybe if I was a proper builder I wouldn't... anyway just to clarify the old arch is present and in reasonable condition, bar a little pointing up.

Definitately no strip under the arch - about 12" of the infill has already been removed (space where a 60's fireplace probably was). Interesting there might already be a bar inserted over the arch - if so the Victorians beat me to it and may have saved me a job!.

In my ignorance I was planning on using a strong (dry) cement mortar mix for the pointing up, packing in hard. I don't want to bother with lime mortar mortar unless this is really important.

BTW I'd automatically assumed that this would be re-plastered, but would some people just clean up the brickwork and lease as-is - if so has anyone tried this and had a good result?.

One interesting find was a horizontal steel gas pipe about 6ft up traversing the width of the chimney breast with two capped-off elbows about 6" from each edge where, it seems, original gas lights would have been. I won't be putting gas lights back in, but an interesting thought!.

Egremont

Reply to
Egremont

Since the wall was intended to be plastered, it may be built with B-grade bricks, and not by the best brickie on site. Add to that staining from having been plastered, and you would probably be rather disappointed with the result.

Yes, I found several such throughout my house. It really got me wondering what type of gaslamps would have been there originally, and I'd love to reinstate some. I kept hoping to find them dumped under the floor or in the corner of the loft or somewhere, but I never did. I have since disconnected all the old gaslamp pipework from the supply though.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

It really a non issue. If theres no support of any kind, and your arch is totally shot (which should be pretty obvious), if youre extremely unlucky, at the very worst you'll lose a triangle of bricks 3' wide, and have to put them back. In nearly every case even completely unsupported brickwork holds itself up fine: youve got an arch and 99% likely a metal bar as well.

Lime is no extra work if you buy lime putty. And no extra cost if you make it: get a bag of lime, mix it to a paste with water, store in a closed tub for 2-3 weeks, and use it 3:1 with sand. If you use cement, when the cement fails in time it pulls bits of the bricks away with it, thats where lime wins. Its also a lot less prone to cracking, and breaking bricks.

If you want to use a cement mix to get it done quick, use 1:1:6. Thats volumes of cement : dry lime : sand. Dont use a strong mix.

Many. Youll find out what it looks like when its uncovered. Though I thought it already was?

NT

Reply to
meow2222

I had a quick dig but didn't see any metal strip. Although I understand any masonary failure would be recoverable, I wouldn't fancy rebuilding the arch if it came to it. So, I did buy/screw a 1200mm restraint strap over the arch. Took about 20 mins but it was a borderline decision and even I'm not convinced it was worth it. But I now have my exposed arch and very impressive it looks too, after the ugly gas fire that was there before, so I'm happy enough.

I wish someone had told me about lime mortar about two years ago - quite a bit of work was done here with sand and cement, though not exterior pointing up. The one awkward problem I had was that a single brick in the arch was loose enough to move. I had to remove it, clean it and wedge it back in (I used a hammer and old slates), but at one point it got a bit complicated when it fell along with the one next to it. This left me holding up two bricks in position with one hand and wedging in with a hammer uing the other - bit it seemed to work and the arch was eventally tight & solid even before pointing up.

It's true that most of the chimney breast is down to brick, albeit covered in powdery Browning remnants. I thought it might look interesting cleaned-up - a sort of rough but distinctly smokey-Victorian period look (though I wouldn't like to slip and hit my head on the corner), but anyway have now settled on plan A - replastering..

Now I now have a few follow-on things to investigate off-line (like can I light up a log fire now and again without smoking up the room)...

Thanks all for the replies.

Egremont.

PS the original gas lights used the the old coal gas, I wonder how they'd fare with natural gas?.

Reply to
Egremont

Period look? They'dve been shocked! More like a 1970s. new-built smoky pub look. Yuck!

Well done!

You can test the draught by *loosly* crumpling some newspaper into a ball and seeing if it/the smoke goes up th chimney when you light it.

They'd have to be re-jetted, and would be much less dangerous.

Reply to
Chris Bacon

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