New boiler - what to buy?

[Stuart Noble]

Had an interesting discussion with a boiler engineer the other day (I was "babysitting" him in a neighbour's house because he wasn't allowed to work alone). I happened to overhear the phone conversation he had with the neighbour, the gist of which was that something or another had failed due to corrosion (he was holding a flat rectangular box with two pairs of pipe connectors) and that it wasn't covered by her insurance. Not only that, but she would need a power flush before the next service. I asked him which side of "the box" had failed, and he shrugged his shoulders. I said that, in my opinion (worthless, but he didn't know that), the hot water side was more likely to be scaled. Made him a cuppa and he agreed not to charge the customer. No skin off his nose etc.

Moral of this is, boiler insurance is probably a good deal these days (cost of parts is the killer), but make sure it covers "scale damage". Too many wriggle-out options otherwise.

[Doctor Drivel]

Modern "quality" boilers are reliable. Look at an Atmos or Atag. Buy cheap and you get what you pay for. You only hear of the problems on these groups not the successes. A relative has just replace a 15 year old Worcester combi. It was never once serviced or once went wrong. They renewed because the system needed replacing as the rads were rotting as the system was neglected. The new combi has a 17 litre/min flowrate too. So, they went for a new system: boiler, rads, pipes.

I know of some Keston boilers, when they made decent boilers, which were coupled to thermal stores 17, 18 or 19 years ago. They have not failed once, although they were the super simple spiral tube heat exchanger condensing versions without even a pcb. The perfect hydraulic environment for a boiler is when attached to a thermal store with two anti-cycle stats. Fit any boiler to a thermal store with two anti-cycle boiler stats and it will last and be trouble free. They only come in a few times a day to give one long efficient burn. No switching in and out of controls constantly.

Also, when a boiler is changed few system are cleaned properly. Always clean a system and fit a Magnaclean filter. A clean system means a longer boiler life, especially on combis.

[Doctor Drivel]

Go for a good flow combi, if the cold mains is up to it. Ditch the cylinders, power shower pumps and tanks. Avoid the Worcester-Bosch. They are 5 years out of date with poor control systems. Vaillant are not far behind and are expensive.

Look at a the Dutch Broag Avantaplus 35C or 39C combi.

are made by Remeha who are well established in commercial boilers in the UK.

The 39C is £917 inc VAT, that is very well priced for a 40kW boiler.

at the combi options pages 17 to 21. The outside senors etc, are extra. a Magnaclean filter on the return to the boiler. That will prevent any blocking up of the tubes in the heat exchanger. The same for all boilers.

The Broag, has a 5 year guarantee. They use primarily industry standard components and little plastic with Gianonni stainless steel heat exchangers, Honeywell brass hydroblocks, Grundfos pumps, etc. The Broags are better quality than Vaillant and much cheaper. They are a well priced quality boilers having a superb control system with integrated outside weather compensation and OpenTherm protocol control. Buy the outside weather temperature sensor and use weather compensation - great comfort conditions and economy. You will not look back.

The heating and system boilers are "dual temperature" boilers. These types of boilers are few are far between, but will reheat a cylinder suoper fast at top temperature and then revert to lower weather compensation temperatures when heating the rads.

The best price/performance around.

[Doctor Drivel]

Good thinking. Only applies to DIY where you can swap out a boiler in half a day.

[A.Lee]

I would dispute that. Yes, it is good if a £300 PCB goes, but for many people, it is just money wasted.

I wrote here before Christmas of a nightmare I had when changing a radiator, where the header tank was so full of gunge, it subsequently blocked the boiler when the rad was refilled. The home owner had a service and insurance contract, with ,I think, EON.

The CORGI man attending for me said the boiler had not been serviced properly for many years, even the front cover/seal was not fitted properly.There was 2 inch of sediment in the header tank.

Specific exclusions in the Insurance were corrosion damage, yet the same people were 'servicing' the boiler, not cleaning it, or putting in any inhibitor.

Obviously there may be some good insurance schemes, but the ones I have seen have so many clauses that they could turn down claims for nearly anything. Alan.

[Doctor Drivel]

Unfortunately the design are 5 years out of date, so avoid. They updating the range with better OpenTherm control systems, integrated weather compensation, etc.. Not here yet, so avoid until they come. I would put a simple heating or system boiler on a thermal store though.

[Rod]

In many areas of insurance, the premium is related to the risk. Buy a Porsche and expect to pay more than for a Ka. Go to China and Mongolia for a month, expect to pay more than a weekend in France.

Surely the insurance companies would help us all if we paid according to boiler model? One possible, obvious reason not to do so would be if the costs (to them) are a small proportion of charges (to us).

[Mark]

The PCB on my WB boiler did not fail when the fan died.

[Stuart Noble]

Or if there's no meaningful difference in reliability. Shock, horror.

[Rod]

Indeed - that is a perfectly reasonable suggestion. (I have no real idea of the truth.) But I have a feeling some people here wouldn't agree... :-)

[David]

Hi,

We had a Vaillant ecoTEC+ 937 fitted in October, it's been brilliant far, it's very quiet and the hot water performance is excellent.

[Robin]

[Robin]

[geoff]

crap flow soldering - well known problems

cheap components not safely spec'd

bad design e.g. relays controlling fans not having a snubber to reduce contact wear due to arcing.

There is, for example a particular Vaillant boiler which has a diode bridge in the loom between the pcb and the gas valve. If the bridge goes down, it blows a resistor on the (expensive) pcb ... and the next one ... and the next one, as there is no indication of this common failure in the manual

or ...

The Ideal Icos - if the fan stalls, it can take the pcb out

The same with fans - the bearings are of much poorer quality than they used to be

There can only be one conclusion one can draw, the manufacturers are out to make as much money as they can out of spares

[geoff]

[YAPH]

Which model is that?

[YAPH]

I take it you mean the old standard efficiency models? Are the PCB faults generally that pin on the fan relay breaking away from the track? I'm getting quite glad I carry a soldering iron on the van, between those and Profile PCBs :-)

[Doctor Drivel]

The Glow Worm Majorca with the McLaren gas valve for one. Most Vulcans. Most cast iron sectioned boilers that ended up leaking at the seals. The Chaffataux boiler with no electrics and a pressure operated valve like a multi-point to bring the burner in. Many Glow Worm Fuelsavers. All the early Vaillant combis. Boy there was some dross out there.

[Doctor Drivel]

Very expensive for what it is, massive on the wall and poor flowrated one the 15 litre is empty.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Minors weren't particularly reliable. More likely they appealed to those who looked after cars and kept them a long time.

Plenty still around - but not necessarily in daily use.

Many get scrapped before their time because people like BG lie about spares availability, or say it *might* not last much longer. I changed my Potterton because it was a good time to do so - major works going on in the room it is housed in - not because it was in any way faulty. At near

30 years old. Of course the huge rise in gas prices tipped the balance.