More eco bollox...

[The Other Mike]

BBC1 40 mins ago.

An 'energy saving expert' wandering round someones house says a dishwasher left switched on after the cycle has finished uses 70% of the energy as if it was running. Then they go on to say washing machines left on standby can use 20% of the energy as if they were running.

Earlier on they had a house that had been insulated under the warmfront scheme and was now covered in mould (walls, clothing etc). Apparently an expert said the warm outer walls filled with insulation now meant that moisture could condense out on cold inner walls - presumably not just any walls, but walls specially made with a means of cooling them down lower than the rest of the property.

Zero ventilation apparently (on a house built in the last 10 years) and so they were having to open all the windows to keep the mould at bay.

mins in for the damp

35 mins in for the standby issue

### Be warned that Chris 'f****it' Hunhe makes an appearance at 40 mins. ###

[Toby]

While I agree this is very misleading, I think they might not be as ridiculous as it appears...

Say you use your dishwasher one a week, which with a single person might not be unreasonable.

Dishwasher uses about 1kWh power cycle.

70% of that is 700Wh 1 week is 168 hours 700 / 168 is 4.17

So if the dishwasher was using 4.17w, left on for a week, that is 70% of a cycle. I realise 4.17w is high for today's appliances, but older ones could waste this sort of figure.

I assume the washing machine is assumed to be used more often than a dishwasher, so the figure is smaller, so only 20%

[Andrew Gabriel]

Older ones tend to have a mechanical timer which clicks right off with no residual power draw.

I did have an old hotpoint W/M with microprocessor control. However, opening the door completely powered off the machine, and it had an on/off button which did the same.

Most of the claims I see about standby power draw are bullshit. Set-top boxes are the main offenders. Most of the devices sold to solve this non-problem consume more than the appliance's own standby load, thereby having the opposite effect than intended.

[Hugo Nebula]

I saw that bit, and my thoughts were that the house was not exactly "modern"(*). It looked like a 1970s ex-council house, w/ single-glazed windows, rendered exterior, etc. It looks like a 'chalet' type bungalow (i.e., rooms in the roofspace). These may be the "internal, un-insulatable walls" that the 'expert' was talking about, i.e., the external walls and sloping ceilings. These are very rarely insulated to any great extent in older properties.

In their cack-handed way, they have stumbled on the reality of the situation; a great many chancers have set themselves up as home insulation experts, and are signing people up to insulate walls & lofts that can't be insulated with some blown fibre or loft rolls. I have heard of cavity wall insulation being applied to houses with 9" solid walls by drilling a few holes in the mortar then filling them straight back up. I'm sure these are the same people who used to install chemical DPCs.

(*) Mind you, it may be to Gloria Hunniford that anything later than Harold McMillan is 'modern'.

[The Other Mike]

I've used that argument before, but they didn't explain it at all.

Taking it to the limit you'd get some rabid eco bollox spokesperson saying a wall wart left plugged in could consume the entire energy resources of Belgium/Wetwang/Chipping Sodbury etc

[The Natural Philosopher]

I shan't bother then :-), but yes, condensation is a real issue with industrial strength insulation and hermetically sealed windows etc. Even my only 2000 spec house is insulated to the standard that REQUIRED airchanges account for around 40% of the heat loss.

With latest spec insulation you almost HAVE to use proper heat recovery ventilation to get the heat loss down.

I simply don't believe 'dishwasher on standby' though - that has to be total crap - either by BBC meters or by some ghastly design cockup.

Bit that is an area that is receiving considerable attention. I've switched off y old laserjet - it got quite warm left on, and the cat was sleeping on it, and then peed in the last one. The new colour laser jet goes to sleep when not used for ten minutes.. looking at dishw3ashers most of them show very low power on 'on but not working' mode. After all, at that level only the SMPSU for the boards will be working - all the relays for heating and motors will be off.

Possibly they used a crap meter than didn't account for PF when they measured it.

SMPSU can draw a LOT of out of phase current when idling..

.

[Tim Streater]

We press the 'Off' button when such appliances are not in use.

[Steve Walker]

Difficult that, as we tend to put the final items in and turn it on just as we're going to bed, so as not to have anything lying around in the morning. Also, if we do turn ours off, we have to remember to change the program, as it defaults to the intensive wash when turned back on.

I'd be much more worried about our Sky boxes, laser printer and home server, everything else seems to take a fraction of a Watt in standby. I may take another look at the server, as an SSD, hibernating and WOL may be acceptable rather than running 24/7 so as to be available whenever required without startup delays.

SteveW

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[larkim]

I was alarmed to note that our Whirlpool built in dishwasher does in fact appear to use close to 100W when in standby at the end of the programme (info gleaned from our Owl energy monitor). Doing what, I don't know.

So we have now stopped putting it on last thing at night and then drawing power all night, and set it at a time when we can turn it off when finished. So left on for ten hours (assuming we sleep very well!) it would have used 100% of the energy it used when actually operating.

(It may be that I reviewed the consumption only at a certain specific time when the dishwasher had some drying routine going on, but I don't think I did. I'll check again tonight if I get the chance!)

So figures may not be complete testes after all, certainly not in my case.

Matt

[Martin Brown]

It is worth checking that the 'Off' button really does power the thing down too. I have seen a few things where it just switches off the "on power" LED but leaves the electronics hot.

For example an audio amp for the PC where the on/off button merely switches off the LED and signal inputs but the main PSU and amplifier continue to draw current! The effect of switching it off is not measurable. One of the extension blocks that powers down all peripherals when the main box goes idle can be worthwhile. 4W each can mount up when you have a couple of PCs, monitors, printers and a scanner. And checking the PCs and monitors "off" current consumption may be worthwhile I have seen them vary from 1W to 20W in nominally off state (obviously somewhat higher in standby).

Many TVs with digital tuners by default leave the tuner running continuously so that recorders can use its output. That is 20-30W.

Most wall warts these days are relatively well behaved, but if it is warm to the touch then it is wasting power.

Shame there are no Wifi network servers that can go to sleep when there is no significant network traffic late at night and then WOL. It is only

12W but it represents over 10% of my residual base load.

Regards, Martin Brown

[Tim Streater]

As do we, but in our case its to get the allegedly cheapo overnight volts.

Well we would have to set the 3-hour delay each time anyway so turning it off makes no odds.

[charles]

Some friends of mine used to do that, but in April last, they awoke to the sound of their smoke alarm - the dishwasher had caught fire.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

That's a vast amount of energy which would have to be dissipated in some way.

[Tim..]

Heater for the drying cycle ???????

Tim.

[jgharston]

"Washing machine" + "standby" ???? Who the hell dipshit manufacturer thought it was a good idea for a washing machine to stay powered on when the cycle was finished? Every washing machine I've ever used completely powers down when the "clockwork" clicks over to "Stop".

JGH

[Guy Dawson]

A friend of mine was involved in the design of some digital cable STBs. When in standby all they did was light the extra standby LED. So they used more power (only just) in standby than they did in 'normal' use!

Guy

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[Steve Walker]

Yes, that is something that we have considered, but the risk is small and the benefit seems worth the risk. We do have working smoke alarms.

SteveW

[Gazz]

you make that sound like a bad thing, at least they were in to hear the alarm and do something about the fire (assuming they have a fire extinguisher in the house)

they could have put the dishwasher on during the day then gone shopping, to come back to a smouldering shell of a house instead.

[Mike Clarke]

But not so for the ones with electronic programmers.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I bet thats actually 100VA and not 100W.