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They are if they share streets with ordinary traffic.
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*If God dropped acid, would he see people?

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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they did that for a great many years without problems. Trams preceded cars on the roads, anyhow.
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From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18
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Really? I can remember them breaking down and blocking the road. Also having rails in the road are a nightmare for cyclists.

So did horses. Things move on.
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*Most people have more than the average number of legs*

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On 31/03/2015 12:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I clearly remember riding my motorcycle through Sheffield on a damp and misty morning. Started to overtake a tram, as I got alongside my wheels got stuck in the rails. So I leant the bike over and laid on the road. suddenly to my dismay the tram started to tilt over towards me. Panic! Then I realised it was all the passengers had come across to look at this poor young man prostate alongside the tram!
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

    Not when you have a Labour council, they brought them back!
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Yes.

Nope.

Irrelevant to what makes sense now.
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:-)
One of our Uni lecturers was on one of the CERN experiments. He had diplomatic plates for his car, and was in Geneva one day and decided to park his car on some tram lines. Came back some hours later to find a queue of four or five trams which couldn't get past. Policeman asked him politely not to do it again.
Trams are expensive and more so if they need their own land (i.e. so as not to be mixed with other traffic). They also need to rely on the city having been laid out with the possibility of trams in mind when it was built, which is not the case for most of the UK. If you want to reduce diesel bus pollution in towns, I'd have said trolley buses made more sense. At least they can drive round an obstruction.
The incident I related above took place 45 years ago. In the interim, in Geneva they took most of the trams lines up, but are now putting them back at great expense and without much in the way of consultation. Their Council, elected by the PR list system so you can't get rid of them, just said "We have done a study".
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nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689
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On 31/03/2015 12:47, Tim Streater wrote: ...

They also work well if run through pedestrianised areas, both keeping them separate from other traffic and putting them close to where people want them.

Again, not a problem if the streets have been pedestrianised.

They can suffer the same problem of not being able to take a different route if a road needs to be closed for some reason, although more modern designs often have battery power or auxiliary motors to allow them to work away from the wires.
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Nightjar <cpb@ wrote:

    Pedestrianised areas are bad news for local town centre shops (and locally for small shopping areas). A number of US towns have depedestianised the town centre as no one would go there.
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On 31/03/2015 21:00, Capitol wrote:

Which is why you need public transport bringing people into them.
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On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 at 10:57:39 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:

A whole lot of people arent into the time waste of public transport
NT
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On 01/04/2015 08:11, snipped-for-privacy@care2.com wrote:

If the area is pedestrianised, the only other option is walking. This is the sort of area I had in mind:
http://goo.gl/maps/PujcD
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On Wednesday, April 1, 2015 at 9:23:07 AM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:

there are a couple more options 1. don't pedestrianise 2. have available or rentable individual transport units of any of several sorts

Unfortunately they seem to have photographed that at night, during a power cut & new moon.
NT
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On 01/04/2015 14:39, snipped-for-privacy@care2.com wrote:

I am strongly in favour of traffic separation, wherever possible.

That is only a different form of public transport. Indeed, driverless shuttles, such as those being tested at Greenwich, may be the future of public transport.

Works fine form me, using Chrome. It is the Homme de Fer Square in Strasbourg if you want to find it for yourself.
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On Wednesday, April 1, 2015 at 5:17:29 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:

Its something very different to what we know as public transport. The main problems with uk public transport are a) the vehicle usually doesnt go from your origin or to your destination b) journey time is generally hugely increased compared to car travel, resulting in a vast waste of human resource.
Hirable vehicles of some sort would go part way to solving it, but only part way. Permitting small vehicles, eg kart size, in all zones might, if implemented sufficiently well, be the best option.
NT
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On 01/04/2015 18:05, snipped-for-privacy@care2.com wrote:

Taxis do and they are a form of public transport. If necessary, mix with train, light railway or other long distance PT.

Well, I wouldn't do a long distance trip by bus, but around town, the traffic usually ensures that everybody travels at much the same speed, unless there are bus lanes, when the bus will probably be quicker. I also suspect that the days when I could drive across London faster than getting there by tube have long gone.

Which is what some of the driverless car experiments seem to be aimed at doing.
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Nightjar <cpb@ wrote: I

    I reckon east/west now takes 3hrs between 7am and 7pm. Probably half that at 1am. Reverse journey is no quicker. North/south I would expect to be the same. It can take 3hrs on a bad Sunday on the M25 to do the same journey. I always found M25 clockwise in the morning, slower than anticlockwise. Reverse for evenings. At 7am, there is a tendency for everyone to park sideways on the M25, therefore you must be off it before then.
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On 01/04/15 22:23, Capitol wrote:

From Central London (Kings Cross) to an M25 junction (A1/A2/A40/A4) by any route, any time 7am to 9pm I expect to take an hour. Most of the day it will take that to get from KX round or through the City to the Blackwall Tunnel. It can take an hour to get to Westway on a bad day.
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On Wednesday, April 1, 2015 at 6:34:44 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:

eping

people

hops (and

veral sorts

f

ain problems with uk public transport are

n


Aiming to increase use of taxis is a mad idea. Of all transports they are t he most wasteful of resources, both material and human. Its only sensible t o use them to fill in gaps in any other system implemented.

esulting in a vast waste of human resource.


I can drive from A to B in town in a fraction the time it takes to walk to a bus stop, wait, go to the nearest stop then walk the rest. Long distance buses/coaches are worse since there are inevitably less people doing any gi ven long distance journey, thus times between vehicles are far longer.

part way. Permitting small vehicles, eg kart size, in all zones might, if implemented sufficiently well, be the best option.


Yes... its the sensible option. Huge vehicles made sense in Victorian times , but today much less so.
NT
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wrote:

Not when using fixed public transport systems like trains for the bulk of the trip.

No, they are in fact much less wasteful of resources than privately owned cars because they are in use much more of the time when used at the start and end of the trip with a train being used for the bulk of the trip.

That's not true either, they are a very viable alternative to private cars just because they do get used a lot more in a day than most private cars do.

But its not so true of a train in a capital city.

That assumes you wait for the bus to show up instead of getting there when you know it leaves which is what most do with long distance bus trips.

Only if driverless is viable.

Still make sense for some situations tho like taking the kids to school or home after its finished.
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