heatmiser, hive, and other remote controlled thermostats

[Stephen]

Hello,

I am thinking of buying a heatmiser thermostat. I like this one because it offers you the ability to create zones with extra thermostats, whereas hive is, I believe, one zone (plus HW) only.

I notice that heatmiser only lets you have four programmes each day. Is this restricting? I suppose you only need four:

1. heat on when you wake or just before.
2. heat off (or technically to a lower temperature) when you leave the house to go to work
3. heat on when you return from work or just before
4. heat to a lower temperature overnight whilst sleeping.

I just wonder whether having an extra couple of programmes spare would be useful: for people coming home for lunch during the week or weekend routines perhaps?

Does anyone here use heat miser? What are your experiences with it?

Thanks, Stephen.

[Tim Watts]

I would personally recommend the Heat Genius system - less wiring as it is ZWave (RF) based and you can control radio rad valves too (or not, it's very flexible how much or how little you buy).

Heatmiser WIFI also were a hideous security problem as the HTTP API was insecure.

[Andy Burns]

exactyl, works well for me, maybe more "complicated" households require more slots?

Yes, I have one for electric UFH and one for CH/HW, they are the older WiFi models with *woeful* security, you probably can't get the old models any more, but if you do, don't let the internet anywhere near them.

[Stephen]

Thanks, I'll take another look at that. I think I ruled it out because it seemed expensive when I last looked.

[Stephen]

What was the problem with the security; were people hacking in and switching on people's heating?

Do you run yours on a separate network that is not connected to the internet? Does this mean you can not control it remotely?

I think wired controls would be better as it would prevent hacking and also the heating would work in a power cut (subject to you having some arrangement to power the boiler). With wifi I presume the heating goes out in a power cut (or do you ups that?)

I will have to do more research!

Thanks, Stephen.

[Andy Burns]

You can control them from phone/tablet with an app or from any web browser, with a purely local wifi connection, that's "safe enough" for home use, unless your WiFi is hacked, but I'd expect any such hacker to be more interested in identity theft, than making your house a bit chilly when you get home.

You could also do port forwarding from your router, and I used to use that, to extend the same options to the outside world, then it *does* matter, because although it requires a password to login and see what the heatmiser is doing, it doesn't require any password to make changes to it!

Now, when I want to access it remotely, I use openVPN, you could run squid as a reverse proxy and do additional authentication there before forwarding it to the heatmiser.

I think the newer (Neo?) heatmisers work so that from your home, the heatmiser contacts a cloud-based server, and your phone does the same.

I have a UPS, that would keep the router, switch and WiFi alive, but not power the boiler/pump.

[Dave Liquorice]

Our programable stat has 6. I have set like the above but with an additional set point, maybe two, around the middle of the day but the set temperature doesn't change. This is so that if some one manually alters the the temperature in the morning it gets reset by the next set point at miday(ish) not the late afternoon one.

[Tim Watts]

It's not cheap, but it works - and very well at that.

However, you do not have to lay out for enough rad valves and sensors to do zone-by-room.

You can use what comes in the starter pack just to replace the main boiler control and main (living room) stat. Leave TRVs on the rads to govern the peak temperature. You have an immediate benefit of a 7 day programmer and remote control immediately.

Later on, if you see the need, you can very easily buy a sensor and rad valve head (should be a dry swap most of the time) and put an additional room into its own zone.

The company is not some faceless giant but a small british company you can actually speak to or email suggestions or bug reports into. Having said that, bugs seem to be absent on the main release and even the beta release is actually incredibly stable.

You have one more backup - if the company goes t*ts up (which I think is unlikely here), the components are all Z Wave standard devices (the company only makes the controller) - so you have a get out of sticking another controller in.

[Tim Watts]

It was the fact they *could*. In fact it seems there were 2 different exploits:

With sloppiness like that, I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole. This is not "an off by one error leading to a hard to exploit buffer overflow" or some exotic hack to a very obscure error.

This is just plain shit design. No two ways about it.

[Chris French]

Yeah, I'm looking to install a Heat Genius setup, probably not with TRV control to start with as my old Satchwell TRV valves would need an adapter and number of them seem to be getting stuck regularly, so I'm looking to maybe replace most of them, but not this year.

Another advantage of the HG setup is that if you want remote access to control the system, you can communicate directly with the controller. Most of the other products on the market seem to require you to go via a remote server (which makes setting up easier I guess, no need for port forwarding etc.), and that will require the remote server to always be there. (AIUI there is a HG remote server, but you don't have to use it)

(the old Heatmiser ones would also let you do this, but I don't think the current Neo ones do)

to come back to the OP original point, I guess 4 time periods is ok if you live a regular, out to work come back home type life. though I'd prefer more

But our patterns of in and out ness are much more irregular, so one with remote access is attractive to me - esp as our old house is expensive to heat, so I reckon payback time even on something expensive like the HG will be reasonable

[Andy Burns]

I suppose the remote server model is easier for the average Joe, until the server gets retired by the manufacturer, I'd never fancy that model ...

[Robert]

I like the look of the Heat Genius system, but there seems little info on "when" the boiler is switched on/off i.e. what devices can call for heat and the role of the main room thermostat . Assuming a house with all rads controlled by TRVs does the main room thermostat override the call for heat from a single TRV and does it switch the boiler on even if no TRV is asking for heat ?

[Tim Watts]

You can define which rooms are allowed to bring the boiler on, and which ones take heat opportunistically.

The other thing is the TRVs do not call for heat as the Danfoss valves are almost simplex control (little feedback).

So what happens is the separate room sensor in conjunction with the room timing schedule or override decide when the room needs heat. At that point the valves are commanded to the set point, has up to a 10 minute lag (valves sleep a lot to conserve battery).

If the room is allowed to command the boiler, then the boiler relay is turned on too.

When the room is warm enough, the valves are commanded to frost stat (4C) mode as apparently that allows the best power saving mode.

One other thing - the valves do have limited proportional control - if the offset between set point and room temperature is small, the valve opens part way, and fully only if the delta-T is large.

And if all rooms are satisified, the boiler stat is turned off.

[Robert]

Thanks for that, so the valves feed back the room temp and get opened and closed as required with some hysteresis . Can one do without the Room Thermostat ? Or is its state ( upto temp or below temp) required to switch the boiler on/off ? One other query will the system run without an internet ( as opposed to a network) connection ?

[Chris French]

AIUI, it's not the valves which feed back the temp, it's the separate room temp/occupancy sensor.

Pass, the basic system cones with one, but maybe this is a question for HG them selves?

Yes:

[Tim Watts]

Not exactly. The valves don't feed back anything AFAIK. The control is done by using the room sensor which does.

You need at least one main stat (they call it the Whole House stat and it's supplied in the kit anyway) - you can as well put this in your main living room. You can leave TRV heads on all the rads and the system will be a very fancy controller with remote control, but will be basically a single zone working in much the same way as a programmer + house stat would.

It certainly needs the Internet for firmware updates - and the remote access web page goes via their portal. The mobile app works quite happily on the local network without the Internet, at least on the beta firmware.

HTH

[Robert]

Thanks for all the advice. My main problem is that a system with a master/house thermostat which controls the call for heat for the whole house does not work in my house. The 1800's 3 storey house is poorly insulated and the heating requirements of individual rooms varies depending on wind direction , sun, outside temp and whether the kitchen door gets left open !! So I really need each room to be able to call for heat as and when required and just as importantly the boiler to switch off when all areas are satisfied to stop short cycling. Whether the cost involved can ever be recovered is another issue.

[Tim Watts]

Then the HeatGenius system is perfect for you, noting the cost is not cheap with a lot of rooms. It will do exactly what you want.

[Michael Chare]

Mr Danfoss programmer has six changes per day which I think is better but don't full use.

I have just bought a Heatmiser Smartstat for another property. It appears to work OK, but I have not installed it properly yet. The main reason for the purchase was the ability to remotely monitor and control the temperature.

I think the Smartstat should allow 6 changes per day and allow any 'holiday temperature'.

[Tim Watts]

Purely for comparison, The HeatGenius one allows a pretty arbitrary temperature slope to be programmed in - 1 degree increments and time periods on every quarter hour. Don't know if there is a limit to the number of set point changes, but it's higher than any sane, or insane, person is likely to every have the patience to programme in!