Converting bathroom

[PeteZahut]

Copied from free.uk.diy.home as there seems to be more activity here

My brother has a downstairs loo and an upstairs bathroom, he is just about to embark on renovating the bathroom and wants to move the toilet upstairs into the bathroom. Where the toilet is now the soilpipe comes out of the back of the toilet and down into the concrete floor inside the house. His bathroom is not directly above the toilet so what he is thinking of doing is bringing the soil pipe out of the house upstairs, connecting a

90degree bend, running the pipe across the back of the house outside about 6feet, giving a drop for waste to flow, putting another 90 degree bend to enable the pipe to come back in the house, once back inside, one more bend to a vertical drop into the existing pipe. He then intends to box in the pipes and use the toilet as a utlity room. He doesnt want to have to dig up the drains and connect that way. Is this a workable idea and does he need to inform anyone if he can do these changes? Pete

[John Rumm]

Where does the existing pipe go to after it drops into the floor in the loo? Does it ever go outside above ground, or does it run straight to the sewer without ever surfacing?

As to viable, I guess it is with a little modification. I would expect that he would need either a vented soil stack outside, or an air admittence valve somewhere in the new layout to prevent the trap in the new loo from getting sucked dry by the syphonic action of all the new pipe.

[PeteZahut]

Straight to the sewer without resurfacing.

Never thought of that, it would be a long run from the toilet to the old pipe, what does inserting an air admittance valve consist of, ie is it just like inserting a t junction or stoptap into plumbing? Cut the pipe, insert the new bit and tighten up? If he fits a vented soil stack, doesnt that have to go to the drains directly or would it need a two way connector, one to go inside the house and one to go to the vent which is above the gutterline? What would be needed to go to the drains directly, is it a lot of work? He wants to do it the easiest way possible. So do I because Ive been roped in to helping him :( Pete

[Lobster]

Oh yes; this is The Place!

He'll need to go through Building Control to do this I'd have thought; don't know if they'd go for it or not... sounds a bit unconventional! Worth him going in to the council for an informal chat; they are very helpful. If the soil pipe was fully internal and boxed in, I'm sure that would be no problem. Likewise if the pipe outside went down into the ground and didn't come back inside it would be OK... it's not rocket science, and would be a far better solution.

If the plan's permissible in its present form, consider that there are a lot of 90-deg bends to cause potential blockages; the pipework would definitely need plenty of rodding eyes to access it in case the worst happened.

What about leaving the downstairs loo in place? Especially for a family home, it's generally reckoned to be a plus having two.

David

[PeteZahut]

Just been on the phone to him, apparently he's already asked if its allowed and they said since the bathroom is already a bathroom he doesnt need permission to put a toilet in there. Unfortunately for him there is no way he can keep the pipework fully internal due to the bathroom not being above the toilet so the waste pipe would have to go under the floorboards. The only reason this is a none starter is he'd have to cut through every joist. Definately a no go there. What does digging up the outside entail, obviously expose the sewer pipe, how do you break into and then connect the new pipe up to it?

Dont the 90-deg bends have access points just in case there is a blockage?

There is no toilet upstairs. Just a bath and sink which he hates. I know he could leave the toilet downstairs and have one upstairs too, he just thought you could possibly run the new waste pipe into the old one and save digging up the drains.

[Lobster]

I'm sure he's allowed to put a loo in the bathroom, but did he explain the 'in and out and in' route he intends the soil pipe to take?! That's the bit they might take issue over. Even if they allow it, I think it would be viewed as a bodge by any surveyor, if he wanted to sell the house in the future.

I'm sure there's plenty of places to search for this on the net, one I have in front of me is:

at the bottom picture in Figure F - is that representative of your brother's set-up (I assume he's got a loo at the position where it says "Access Pipe"? All that would be necessary would be to cut through the near-horizontal soil pipe outside the house, and fit a new long-radius bend[1]) which will connect to the new soil pipe running down the outside wall. If it's a new-ish house, with modern plastic pipes, this will be easy-peasy; if has old clay pipes it's a bit harder as the pipe will need sawing through carefully without busting it, and an adaptor will be needed to connect the new plastic pipe to the old clay.

Not necessarily; what I'm suggesting is that he buys bends which do have them where needed (they're a bit more bulky/obtrusive and cost more).

He could leave the old one in place, and instead of using a bend at [1] above, insert a tee, which would have both loos connected.

David

[Lobster]

See Figures E and F in the link I sent in my other post David

[John Rumm]

OK...

Well the usual way is to have it sit on the top of a stub pipe close to the loo...

If it were me I think I would bite the bullet and install a vented stack outside that goes from a vent pipe above the gutter line straight down into the ground and joins to the existing pipe that the downstairs loo must currently connect to. That way you have freedom to make additional connections to it in the future as and when required.

I would not expect it to be that much work really - he would need to dig a hole ouside where the pipe is. Once it is found, cut if off[1] a little back from the house and install a new swept bend to take the pipe run vertical into the base of the new soil stack. Depending on the age of the property the existing pipe may be plastic, or it may be a salt glaze clay pipe. Either way there are plenty of adaptors and collars to fit that will adapt to a new plastic pipe. Once fitted you can back fill with a bit of pea shingle round the pipe and make good. (if building control are in the loop they may wish to inspect the connection).

The new plastic soil stack is then easy to connect to wherever necessary simply by inserting a T piece and having a (almost) horizontal run from the new loo position to the T.

[1] cutting into a plastic pipe can be done with a hacksaw (or reciprocating saw if you want a powered alternative), for a clay pipe you can either use a large angle grinder / stone saw or you can hire a chain pipe cutter which basically snaps the pipe off at the point required.

Lucky you!

Have a look at the bulding regulations part H

has some pictures and all the details of how to do what you want.

[PeteZahut]

Thanks for all the replies so far, I'm going to draw a rough pic of the setup as it is now, to maybe help in the advice you are all giving as to the best way forward. His house is an ex council house, maybe 60 years old so I'm presuming it will have clay pipes underground. Will put the pic on the net soon. Be warned though, I'm no artist lol. Pete

[Set Square]

How does the bath waste get to the sewer at present?

How is the sewer currently vented?

My father-in-law's chalet bungalow has a (downstairs) toilet whose outlet goes into the floor and down into the sewer without emerging anywhere in fresh air. *But* there's also a an external vent pipe which goes down to the sewer and up to eaves level. Assuming there are no restrictions at the bottom of this vent pipe, this pipe could potentially be used for the connection of an upstairs toilet, should one ever be installed.

I wonder whether your brother has anything similar.

By far the best solution is to go straight out through the wall, and then along and down into the sewer externally. Your suggested solution *might* work - but it's highly unconventional!

[PeteZahut]

Not sure sorry, I'm almost certain there are no downpipes outside his house wide enough to take number twos. Something tells me that there is a thin downpipe which goes to a grid in roughly the place under where the toilet would be. If thats a grid could he use that? I'm presuming that would be the same size pipe as the buried toilet one and going to the same sewer. If thats the case could he get a fitting to enable him to just push it in the grid and allow the bath to be tee'd into that? That would save a lot of messing.

Again, no idea, there is no access cover in his back yard, no pipes go up above his gutter either. The waste pipe comes out of the back of the toilet, takes a 90 -deg bend immediately into the concrete floor and never seen again.

I think I understand that, I'd have to have a good look at his house to give an honest answer but have not ever noticed any pipe which runs right up the house.

The unconventional part people have mentioned is going to make me suggest he sticks to normal methods rather than whats easiest. He is planning on selling it in a few years and I'm sure he'll want it to go easily. If he can connect it up to the existing drain then great, I'll suggest that way, otherwise I'll tell him to buy a spade, get digging and call me when he can see the pipes. I tried drawing a pic to show you how it is at the moment but failed miserably.

I'll try and do it with letters and lines on here

| landing bathroom bedroom | | WC Door Kitchen window ^

Hope that gives a rough idea of his house setup, Where the ^ sign is, its a grid, I know this because his kitchen waste pipe flows into this, now I think of it, Im pretty sure his bath flows there too. Most people seem to think digging is the way to go but before I try and twist his arm, is the drain shown above an option he can go with? Thanks again for all your advice so far. Pete

[John Rumm]

You won't be able to use it directly since it will have a trap of its own to maintain the air seal. Your soil connection will not want a trap at this location. It would also be a pig to connect to! The outlet pipe from the grid may also only be 3"

You may well find a pipe run between WC and grid positions that you could tee into and atttach a new stack above it.

[Christian McArdle]

If he wants to remove the downstairs toilet, this might not be permissible. There is supposed to be a toilet on the entrance floor for elderly/disabled relatives these days. Although an old house doesn't require one, it is probably not allowed to remove an existing one.

As for the routing of the soil pipe, it sounds fine, provided ventilation is provided to the roof line, or the building control department will allow an air admittance valve (aka Durgo).

Christian.

[PeteZahut]

He's decided to bite the bullet and dig up the drains first (there was once a rats nest down there according to a neighbour), then if he feels confident enough he'll look into connecting up to the original drain. He has a grinder, quite small but loads of time to do it. I think the possibility of potential blockages swung it. He also has a daughter who wants two toilets. Lord knows why since she's the one who hogs the bathroom. Thanks for all the replies though Pete