Cleaning Smelly Boiler

[John]

[John]

A brush and vacuum would be kinder than a screwdriver!

[Toby]

I have just bought a house and inherited a very old boiler with it (Potterton Flamingo II - CF50)

It seems to work, as it heats the hot water cylniner (gravity) and if I trun on the chentrral heating (pumpled) the radiators get hot.

The main problem is, it smells "funny" when it is on, but I am unsure what the smell actually is (it's not unburned gas)

This boiler has vents on the front, and a open flue (Ducted from the ground floor, up the chimney, to to roof, where there is a termination cap on the end, on top of the chimney (two story house)

I have purchased a CO alarm (with a readout on the front) so far, it has not gone off (even with the wondows closed), so that's good.

Inspecting the insides of the boiler, there was a lot of black dusty crap inside, under the burner (on what looks like an aspestos mat)

I cleaned all this out, and shoved a thin screwdriver up the fins where the flames go up (Heat exchanger, I imagine) and lots of this muck came down.

I plan to replace this boiler soon, but for now, it is used for hot water while I am decorating etc (I am not sleeping there at the moment, the plan is to do any wiring, plumbing and decorating before I move in, including a new boiler, probably a combi)

For now, what is the best way to clean it out, other than totally taking it apart....or is this really to only option i have!?

Thanks!

Toby...

[Toby]

Yea, but, the heat exchanger looks to be quite deep (maybe 30cms ish) and the fins are rather close together, so I don't think I am going to get very far with a brush at least with the screwdriver, careful prodding means I can get right in there!

I doubt it has been serviced for a very long time, looking at the state of it!

I will try and stick a camera in the boiler to take a picture!

[Andrew Gabriel]

You need two things to go wrong to get CO in the room:

1) Fumes not all going up the chimney/flue, and 2) Very poor (incomplete) combustion.

Sounds like you only have 1) at the moment, but 1) can easily cause 2).

With an open-flued appliance, this can happen for a minute or so when it first lights and the chimney is still stone cold. A smoking match test near the flue inlet (if you can get near it) would be a good test. Also, check the flames are all blue, and they're all going up the heat exchanger and not floating underneath it or coming out the sides (sorry I don't know what you can see of this in that boiler).

That is almost certainly due to poor combustion forming soot, so you probably do have both 1) and 2).

Soot is really difficult stuff to suck up. I suggest trying to collect most of it on a sheet of paper or card. If you use a vacuum cleaner, it will stain the insides black, and it will either instantly clog the bag, or pass straight through and out with the exhaust. What works best is to use a bag which is already full of fluff, as the fluff will trap a significant amount of the soot before it gets to the bag.

You use a special brush which is designed to run up the sides of the fins (or nippples). Depending on the design, you may need to do this from several directions to clean the heat exchanger. When I used to service an old cast iron boiler, I would take out the burner assembly whilst doing that, both to clean it, and to stop the crud going into the burners and pilot assembly.

Unless you are familiar with cleaning one of these and testing the flue, I would suggest you permanently turn it off. I think it's just waiting to kill you unless you get it properly seviced.

How about starting by putting in a new boiler?

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "Dieseldes" saying something like:

171 lines, 4 of them yours - be nice if you snipped some.

[Toern]

I too have a Potterton Flamingo open flued boiler, with hot water cylinder, and am looking into renewing it in a couple of years.

- I have a 3 bed ground floor flat, with no insulation, and single glazing.

- (we must first cut heat wastage through walls, windows, and ventilation to keep boiler size and gas bills down)

I have found out the following (I am not an expert CORGI installer, but an architect trained to calculate heating systems):-

- Stopped production 1989. (mine was installed 16 years ago in

1992)

- It is about 65% efficient, quite a lot less than a modern boiler. I calculate it is costing about =A3180 per year more than a modern boiler to run. It is working with no trouble.

- Open flue needs careful checking that enough fresh air enters room because burning gas flames burn room air. Thus you are checking for Carbon Monoxide fumes.

- Your predecessor clearly did not get the usual annual service, and the heat exchanger has got sooted up. This needs clearing or it is wasting heat. Remove the plate below the chimney flue, and clean the soot from between the fins. Keep a bit of cardboard on top of the gas burner to catch falling soot. You can buy little brushes from plumbing suppliers, or use pieces of wire. Strictly this is a job for a CORGI registered gas maintenance man.

- But British Gas (v expensive quotes) priced replacing it with a modern condensing boiler at =A35000, which would take 28 years of efficiency savings, to make it worth replacing the old boiler.

- Ideal Boilers Ltd told me that their current condensing boilers last about 5-10 years, and their heat-exchangers are made of aluminium.

- so it is 3x as expensive to replace with new as put up with an inefficient old boiler, subject to how long it lasts.

- Aluminium heat exchangers corrode badly when acidic condensing flue gases work in efficient condensing mode.

A heating engineer wrote to a trade magazine (Heating Ventilation and Plumbing magazine 2/07) that he had twice had condensing boilers with aluminium fail in less than 2 years, because he ensured they were working very efficiently in condensing mode. he said he thinks most aluminium condensing boilers last longer because the installers do not design the system for efficient condensing mode, so are mostly only working efficiently for 10mns per day.

- The other problem about replacement is Combi boilers:- Perhaps the reason they only have 5 year life is that the heat exchanger must get lime-scaled like an electric kettle in hard water area.

- The central heating circuit is closed and so can have corrosion and scale inhibitors in the main flow water, but the Domestic Hot Water cannot have inhibitors because it comes out of your taps. You must not use softeners, or the heat exchanger will corrrode from the inside as well as th outside.

- Does any> > (Potterton Flamingo II - CF50)

[PM]

I agree, and the buyer can concentrate on the things important to them - if I saw a Potterton Flamingo boiler in a house I was going to buy, the first thing I'd do is replace it; no point having any tests done on it.

[Bob Mannix]

I think you [all] missed my point, which was that there was an obligation on the seller that, when the buyer moved in, the heating should function and heat the house and the water, the drains should flow, toilets flush and the lights turn on and off etc., unless you had said otherwise. Having the worst boiler in the world, as long as it operated, would be no problem. Having a toilet that took 5mins to fill would be no problem either. Equally, if the boiler coincidentally fails a week after moving in that's just tough but you do have to present a "working" house on exchange (unless stated otherwise).

[Huge]

No there isn't. All there is is that the house should be "as described".

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Can you give some documentation to back this up? It's very different from my understanding. Why do estate agents blurb always say 'central heating (not checked)'? Or do round here.

[Bob Mannix]

Exactly, if it is described as having central heating then it should have (unless there's something that says it doesn't or that it doesn't work). That was my point!

To answer DP's point, no I was given the advice verbally but yes it will say ("not checked") so that, if it blows up later on they are covered.

[Owain]

Because otherwise the *estate agent* is liable under the Property Misdescription Act. The requirement for systems to be working etc is in the sale contract, which is handled by solicitors, not estate agents.

Owain

[Dave Plowman (News)]

It certainly wasn't in mine. Is this a normal thing these days?

[Owain]

Fairly normal, yes. Possibly not in the case of a repossession though, where such things might be specifically excluded.

Owain