Cctv able to read number plates

[Cynic]

We've got simple cctv cameras with IR illuminator around the lens up at the local hall. Lately there's been a problem with boy racers gathering after dark in the car park and antisocial behaviour ensues. The cars can be viewed but reflective number plates are just a washout pres umably caused by the direct reflection of the IR. Has anyone had success in capturing readable images of number plates after dark using economic camer as? I'm guessing the use of a non illuminated camera with a separate illumi nator from an angled location might solve the reflection washout of the ima ge but the hall doesn't want to spend funds without being sure it will work .

[michael adams]

IANAL but if the police are unwilling to take action on the basis of any timed CCTV footage you can provide them with already - basically by lying in wait and catching them in the act - then I doubt your being able to record the number plates would make any difference.

While parking co's record and make use of number plate footage in order to impose penalties, I think there are fairly strict conditions they have to comply with - by way of notices etc.

IOW before seeking any more technical information it might be worth simply checking with the local police and seeking their advice. As obviously number plate information is no good in itself, no matter how clear it is, if there's nothing you can do with it.

michael adams

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[Steve Walker]

One report, of anti-social use of a motor vehicle (with number) can result in the police issuing the owner with a warning. A second report within a period can result in the vehicle being seized. They are far more likely to do something if you can give the number. They are not going to "waste" resources on lying in wait for relatively minor anti-social behaviour.

SteveW

[michael adams]

As a matter of interest, how do they guard against against malicious reports ?

Relatively minor anti-social behaviour which nevertheless as you've just explained above, can apprently result in a vehicle being seized, on tne second occasion of something being reported by a member of the public.

michael adams

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[ARW]

Reported by whom? By Joe Public?

[Andy Burns]

Police Reform Act, section 59

[ARW]

Caltrops are the answer.

Probably best laid in the car park just after your CCTV has had an "unfortunate" accident.

[michael adams]

Its a fair cop guv.

michael adams

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[michael adams]

Fair emough I stand corrected.

michael adams

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[michael adams]

Fair enough if that was possible. But I was asking in relation to their simply being "given" the number. What's to stop anyone maliciously reporting a neighbour of anti-social driving along with their car number ? More especially if the neighbour is unpopular and other neighbours are willing to back up the malicious complaint. The description of the process makes no mention of CCTV, although obviously that would help. Or there again even better somebody could "borrow" the neighbours car do a few wheelies and get caught on the CCTV even better.

michael adams

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[Steve Walker]

That is one of the problems that struck me when this legislation was introduced. Lacking CCTV evidence, I think that it was mentioned at the time that it had to be from two independent members of the public. Still not a lot of protection.

Even worse is that there is no right of appeal or avenue for doing so in the legislation. The only route to fight it is apparently by judicial review, which would be very expensive and time consuming. I suppose it would have to be fought out in court on the basis of the owner showing that the accusers were known to them or associated with people who they have a dispute with or by showing that you were not the driver - although the offence can be "attached" to the vehicle and not just the driver.

These days though, I would expect that the police would be wanting to see CCTV or phone video evidence.

The relevant legislation is Section 59. It is not very clear, but apparently (confirmed on police forums and lawyers guidance forums), but the officer only needs to "believe" that the vehicle is being used in an anti-social manner, likely to cause distress or annoyance and that belief can simply be by them receiving reports from the public.

It is wide open to abuse. However, I presume that it is not being hugely abused or there would be stories in the papers about it.

SteveW

[Steve Walker]

I like it!

SteveW

[Bill Wright]

No-one else has even tried to answer your question. They have been too busy acting like barrack room lawyers. The problem is partly that reflective number plates dazzle the camera, partly that the number plate will be grossly over-exposed because it reflects the IR, and partly that the shutter speed will be automatically low so there will be motion blur. There is no easy solution. You might do better to aim for clear identification shots of the bikes and riders. One way is to have a reasonable level of visible light (30W LED floods) and a camera with a big lens set for a fast shutter speed. Pre-focus on the roadway because the depth of field will be poor. Set the camera so it doesn't switch to monochrome, since colour aids identification.

Bill

[spuorgelgoog]

ANPR cameras can be hired, eg

although the cost may be more than buying one. Many police forces or councils have raplid-deployment relocatable CCTV cameras. Possibly if you involve local police liaison or councillors you might get them to put one near the hall for a while.

Or if you have a local security business with one they might give you a free loan.

Otherwise if volunteers can remotely access the cameras and keep an eye, on a rota, and call the police when something is happening, you may get a result.

Owain

[Dave Liquorice]

If the Poilce density where the OP is is anything like ours (at any one time around three officers inc PCSO's) for 100 square miles ish) even if they aren't involved in something else by the time they've arrived the boy racers will have moved on.

And as Mr Wright says getting a CCTV system that has the abilty to render number plates at night isn't easy. He misses out the the glare from head/tail/brake lights...

So if you have people able to keep an eye on the CCTV remotely, then wandering around when "activity" is spotted and using the Mk1 eyeball to get numbers, make, model and colour of the cars and passing that to the Police may be more effective. Even better if there are CCTV recordings that are good enough to show at least make/model if not colour (apart from "light" or "dark") and plates.

[Nightjar]

The industrial estate where I used to have my factories had a professionally installed CCTV setup around the main gate. The whole area was well lit by column lamps, to give good colour images day or night. There were two general view cameras, giving distance shots in both directions. There were two cameras giving closer views of vehicles and, with luck, their drivers on entering and leaving.

The fifth camera recorded the number plates of vehicles entering. It was not ANPR, simply recording an image that could be retrieved later, if required. It had lots of problems until they fitted it with IR emitters and a narrow pass filter, matched to the frequency of the emitters. It was still never completely successful, but probably worked about 70% of the time. One result of the filter was that it only showed the numberplate on a black background, with no details of the vehicle. That had to be identified from one of the other cameras. I don't recall the police ever using any of the CCTV images in evidence, although they did sometimes view them if there was a break in on the estate.

[Terry Casey]

+1

My dashcam - a cheapo Aldidl one - starts recording when it detects movement.

If there is somewhere you could mount one where it is reasonable safe and protected from the weather - even if someone has to install it every night just before it gets dark and retrieve it later - I wonder if it would work?

By masking its own IR LEDs and placing it at a different angle to the problem area - possibly near ground level - I wonder if it won't be flooded by the IR from the main camera and record the registration numbers? A simple check with a hand held unit one night would prove or disprove the idea.

Make certain that the date and timestamps on both cameras are correct so that the two recordings tally. Then you would have the main camera recording events while the dashcam records the registration numbers.

The internal battery on mine is rubbish so you might nead an external battery supply but that should be easy to arrange.

[Marland]

Wildlife/trail/ trap cameras are a nice self contained package. Some models can send images over the cellphone network though often at lower resolution than the one stored on the on board memory card. Most have an option to record a sequence of stills and/or some video. Others have low visibility black IR illuminators so they are hard to spot compared to the usual red glow which can be observed. Some councils set them up in known flytipping spots hidden a tree etc so presumably some models collect a good enough image of numberplates to be useful.

Prices range from about £40 for a basic one to around £500 for something at the top end. I have to say the one from Lidl a few weeks back though basic and with normal IR illuminators produces very good images for its around £80 cost that stand comparison to the more expensive Little Acorn I also have.

GH

[dennis]

Its just a case of getting the exposure correct. To do so may be impossible with some cameras. The best way is with manual control so you park a car there and set the exposure so you can read the plate.

Of course this means the rest of the field of view will be pitch black which is why multiple cameras are used.

You could try moving the IR source away from the camera so it doesn't reflect straight back but watch the shadows as they will lose detail.

[Cynic]

We've had repeated discussion with the local police. Being rural the available manpower is prioritised elsewhere. They have commented that number plate details would be immensely useful.