Balancing radiators

wrote:

No problem until you come to sell your house. Then the prospective buyer wants to know what changes you've made - and then wants to see the accompanying paperwork. If the windows have been done and there's no FENSA signoff to show its to standard (if you get a builder to do it) or if you've got nothing from Building Control (if you do it yourself), then the buyer will evaporate.
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wrote:

Why would they know the window has been replaced?
I actually bought this house in 2000 with single glazing. What if I had never installed double? Are you saying I couldn't now sell it?
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wrote:

No. I'm saying that any competent solicitor, and their client, would want to be assured that any changes made since it was built comply with the regs in force at the time. So if you've (say) changed a window in the last 10 years they'd expect it to be DG. Of course, you could "forget" to mention that, but if the purchaser then got dinged themselves later, they could sue you.
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Tim

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wrote:

I'll try not to sell to an American.
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On 05/12/2011 22:36, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

If yours does not have a fanned flue, then its probably fairly basic, and unlikely to exceed 70% efficiency. Hence it wastes 30p of every £ you spend on gas.

Compared to yours, a modern boiler is likely to be 25% better.

Much depends on the size of your gas bill. There is often no point in ripping and replacing a working system unless you have very high bills. However when you are forced to replace, you may as well go for the best available at the time.
I will probably rip out and replace my boiler on the grounds of efficiency, but only because a new one will pay for itself in two to three years due to the current size of the bills.

Depends on if you can do it yourself again. A FENSA register installer will only be able to install stuff that complies with modern building regs.

Yup.
More of a Y front person myself, so can't really comment.
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wrote:

That's why it's best to steer clear of them :-)

I cannot locate the cameras.

Bloody spellchecker!
Y FRONTS?!?!?! Didn't those go out in the 70s?
Anyway, I said kiss....
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On 05/12/2011 21:50, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

No, the condensing boilers have larger more effective heat exchangers, so even if not running at optimum temperatures will still out perform a normal one. There is a rise in the rate of improvement of efficiency when the return temperature drops below about 54 degrees.

It would be a problem if you wanted other rads to get hot and they were being starved of flow.
Modern boilers will load sense and modulate - so as the differential between flow and return falls (which in a correctly working and balanced system indicates that the house temperature is rising), the boiler will reduce its output to better match the rate of heat loss into the house.

Perhaps, but its not your choice alas. Unless you have the skills to install and commission your own boiler, then you are restricted by what your installer is prepared to use and commission. They in turn are restricted by building regs and Gas Safe etc as to what they can legally install.

You and everyone else. There are not many open flue boilers left out in the wild these days, fortunately.

Yes, but its not an option with any boiler you can buy today. They must exceed 86% efficiency, and big lumps of cast iron with permanent pilot lights don't.
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You talking about gas or oil, here, John? Or both? Be nice to think an oil job can vary its output. Otherwise, seems to me, there is a good risk it just dumps its heat up the flu if the return temp is too high.
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Tim

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On 07/12/2011 22:58, Tim Streater wrote:

Mostly gas. Some modern oil boilers may be able to modulate, but with far less range and flexibility compared to a gas one.

Its probably not that bad - as it can't modulate as much, the flow temp will start to rise and it will then cycle off on its internal stat. Since the pump will still be running, the hot water in the boiler ought not be wasted and can still be circulated out to the rads. Cycling like that is less desirable than a wide modulation range, but it is not the highly inefficient cycling that one associates with old cast iron boilers being cycled on the room stat with no pump overrun.
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Ah. In our case we have only one room stat (and its in the hall). Sounds like I should turn it up high and control matters via the TRVs.
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Tim

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On 08/12/2011 14:45, Tim Streater wrote:

It is worth remembering that condensing model with oil fired boilers is not so useful as it is with gas fired boilers. The difference between lower and high CV for gas is just over 10% but for kerosene it is only just over 6% and for diesel it is marginally less.

Possibly not. We have had many an argument over the years about where is the best place to mount the room stat and position the radiator without a TRV. Having the room stat in a place where you don't much care how closely the temperature is controlled is not ideal as far as I am concerned. Not only do you have to ensure that the hall warms up more slowly than the rooms where you actually spend your time TRVs are also more susceptible to changes to outside events than a room stat so have to adjusted a bit more frequently if you happen to be sensitive to cold. Be that as it may (and many would dispute the living room as the best place for the room stat) turning the hall stat right up will leave the boiler firing up just to heat the hall to a temperature you really don't want to waste gas on. There is no ideal solution but throttling the hall radiator down rather than turning the hall stat up is the cheaper one for your circumstances.
For what its worth I have separate upstairs and downstairs heating zones with programmable stats in the main bedroom and the living room.
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We may move the boiler (get a new one at the same time). I shall attempt to look into better boilers if/when we do. I think out CH piping is prolly a mish mash of uninsulated poorly run plastic and copper. But to fix it means taking the floors up, which is unlikely to happen in the short term. And at the same time I'd try to add insulation under the original 30s suspended floors, and beef up that under some of the floors in the cheap [1] extension to the house. If the boiler project goes ahead I'd also look into RF controlled TRVs.
Meanwhile we're getting a wood-burner put in.
[1] Last summer upstairs floor in new tile-hung extension lifted to add new pipes. I was able to put my hand into the trench in the floor (near one wall) and feel over to the outer sheet on which the tiles are hung - encountering *no* insulation on the way.
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Tim

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wrote:

My neighbour just replaced her open flue one. It was on all the time! I assumed it was because they were old people and used the heating a lot, but their house didn't seem that warm really - maybe it was throwing half the gas out into the driveway (I could certainly smell it sometimes). The installation seemed to involve putting in a new chimney to the roof - I think mainly because the old one was leaking.

It'll be electric cars next....
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What? And being an elephant is nothing to do with an elephant being an elephant? Are you high?
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You really have little clue of why rads are sized up properly and balanced. This is sad.
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On 04/12/2011 23:42, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Fine, but all other things being equal the rads further away from the boiler are going to have less flow than the ones close to it.
My system has most of the rads piped in 10mm off manifolds, but a couple of later additions are piped in 15mm off the flow & return so these are turned down on the lockshields ft achieve the same differential.
I have one oversized radiator turned well down on its lockshield so my idea of a balanced system is not strictly balanced.
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Graham.

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On 04/12/2011 23:42, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

I think you may be missing the point... with an unbalanced system, some rads will get blisteringly hot, some warm, and some may stay stone cold regardless of the power of the boiler. If there is no water flowing through the rad, it will not heat, no matter what the boiler does.
Slapdash plumbers may fit TRVs all round the place and let them do the job - but even that is a bodge because it depends on some rooms reaching target temperature and throttling back their rads to even begin to heat other rooms. A well balanced system (with well chosen rad outputs) will warm all the rooms at a similar rate.
There is another variations on the theme:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title Ίlancing_central_heating_radiators
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Cheers,

John.

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John, I'm happy that you can afford to warm all rooms ;) I have 10 rads, only 5 are ever used due to the cost. If I used all 10 I'd be on the high street with a begging bowl :)
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Think yourself lucky, I have a radiator in the garage which uses a lot of gas!
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On 05/12/2011 09:35, Lieutenant Scott wrote:

Well if you will keep parrots in your garage ...
If you need to keep that garage so much warmer than usual have you considered insulating it to the same standard as your house?
Cars don't need heating but having somewhere dry to keep them probably helps.
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