Whole house surge protector?

[Joseph Meehan]

....

Not only do I agree with that, I practice it as well.

[Pop]

===> I try to, but I think I just lost a printer due to a lightning surge yesterday. It popped the UPS on so I know it was a good hit, and the UPS shows it as a surge > 132Vac; and the printer quit working. Turns out I plugged the printer directly into the wall instead of one of the surge outlets. Dumb! ;=(.

[Rob Mills]

Don't have a whole house protector but think it's a good idea. I do use those strip surge protectors on just about everything. One time I had two in series and we caught a powerline overload and the first protector basically exploded, burned the carpet it was sitting on but a police scanner, shortwave radio and tel answering machine connected to it survived. The second surge protector which had a computer and printer hooked to it went untouched. These were standard "metal cased" MOV (metal oxide varistor) 5 outlet surge protectors. I'm convinced we would have had a house fire if the surge protectors had been encased in a plastic rather than metal. RM ~

[w_tom]

When an MOV protector fails catastrophically, then it was grossly undersized. It operated in a region not defined by its manufacturer - in violation of the part's intent. But if a power strip protector is undersized, then the homeowner will know of the surge. That promotes more sales of undersized protectors that really don't provide the protection and, as Rob Mills demonstrates, can even create a house fire.

The effective protector earths a surge; and the homeowner never knows it happened.

Protectors that provides effective protecti> Don't have a whole house protector but think it's a good idea. I

[w_tom]

[w_tom]

Love it when people are so knowledgeable that they only need make a declaration, never need provide any numbers, never provide examples, demonstrate no grasp of technical facts, and insist they should be believed blindly. Only they can be trusted to know.

Your telco's $multi-million switching computer connects to overhead wires everything in town. Since nothing can protect from lightning, then one week every year, phone service is out while a lightning damaged computer is replaced. Those cell phone towers stop providing service for a full week to replace destroyed equipment - annually. Commercial FM and TV transmitters atop the Empire State Building are out of service for 26 weeks due to 26 direct lightning strikes every year. No wonder those communication and equipment manufacturers are so profitable.

When was Pop going to reconcile real world examples with his knowledge? Or are we to believe only he knows what is right? Pop never provides any supporting theory, numbers, or technical citation with his claim. He just knows. In the real world, it is routine to suffer direct lightning strikes without damage.

Whole house protection is not standard in most homes. If the homeowner does not specifically request it during new construction (only in recent years) OR has not has it installed, then 'whole house' protection does not exist. Furthermore, if the building's earthing system is not to a single point - is not properly installed - then even the 'whole house' protector is ineffective.

Unfortunately most homes still d> Whole house protection is a standard option these days

[w_tom]

Love it when people are so knowledgeable that they only need make a declaration, never need provide any numbers, never provide examples, demonstrate no grasp of technical facts, and insist they should be believed blindly. Only they can be trusted to know.

Your telco's $multi-million switching computer connects to overhead wires everything in town. Since nothing can protect from lightning, then one week every year, you are without phone service when the lightning damaged computer is replaced. Those cell phone towers stop providing service for a week to replace destroyed equipment. Commercial FM and TV stations atop the Empire State Building are out of service for

26 weeks every year due to the 26 direct lightning strikes every year. No wonder those communication and equipment manufacturers are so profitable.

When was Pop going to reconcile these examples with his knowledge? Or are we to believe only he knows what is right? Pop never provides any supporting theory, numbers, or technical citation with his claim. He just knows.

It is routine to earth lightning before it gets inside the building; no damage. If nothing can protect from lightning, then why install any surge protector? What else overwhelms protection already inside appliances if not lightning?

Appliances already have internally any protection that is effective on the power cord. Protection that assumes the seriously destructive transient such as lightning will be earthed before it can enter the building. Computers are some of the most robust appliances. For example, look at a computer grade UPS output when in battery backup mode. 120 volts on this one is really two 200 volt square waves with up to a 270 volt spike between those square waves. This output can even damage some small electric motors. But this output is perfectly fine for computers because computer power supplies are (as required by Intel specs) so robust.

But even computer internal protection can be overwhelmed it destructive lightning is permitted to find earth ground, destructively, via that computer. Even the robust computer needs lightning to be earthed before it can enter the building. This is called 'whole house' protection - on every incoming utility wire.

Whole house protection is not standard in most homes. If the homeowner does not specifically request it during new construction (only in the past few years) OR has not has it installed, then 'whole house' protection does not exist. Furthermore, if the building's earthing system is not to a single point - is not properly installed - then the 'whole house' protector is still ineffective.

We earth every incoming utility, either via a 'whole house' protector or via a dedicated ground wire, to the single point ground. That is for lightning protection - so that lightning will not overwhelm protection already inside all appliances. IOW we first learn what was well proven and well understood more than 60 years ago. Back then, the only buildings with electronics to protect were telephone switching centers, commercial broadcasters, communication towers, etc. Today every building has transistors - requires properly earthed protection especially from lightning. Its called learning from those who proved the science before declaring nothing can protect from lightning. It is routine to suffer direct lightning strikes to incoming utility wires and not suffer damage. The technology was that well proven for too many decades.

Unfortunately most homes still d> Whole house protection is a standard option these days

[Pop]

===> Undersized how? They're rated for x joules, more than that causes the MOVs to conduct, until they open the ckt. If you mean undersized to protect against monsrous surges, OF COURSE!! The sentence means nothing.

It operated in a region not defined by

===> How do you know that?

But if

===> What does that mean?

then the homeowner will

===> It's more likely the homeowner will NOT know of the surge, since the vast majority of the time an MOV fails OPEN once it conducts, he may not even know it was surged unless it has indicators for functionality.

That promotes more sales of undersized

===> NO surge protector can protect beyond the number of joules it's rated at, and it would very UNlikely to have started a fire if nothing else in the house was bothered. That surge, if it really happened, was large enough to jump the gaps of the MOVs once they opened up, and thus was capable of jumping many other gaps. Sometimes though, a protector CAN sacrifice itself for the equipment, which sounds like what happened, but ... it wouldn't have started a fire unless it was sitting inside a pile of tinder that sparks could have ignited. The plastic would nto have melted or other equipment would have been damaged. Black stuff only indicates spark, not flame.

===> No, protectors do much more than that; they are wye-connected varistors usually with inductive walls to keep the lines within safe ranges of each other whether it's earth or hot to neutral or ... and so on.

===> What the hell do you mean by "properly sized"? And what the heck does "close to ground" mean anyway?

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

This is called

===> Wrong, proton breath; they are quite effective and useful and are recommended for very good reasons. I hope you aren't using any and that you shortly suffer several power and phone line lightning hits within 5 miles of your home or less, preferably the transoformer you're fed from. You're a moron in this area. So, uhhh, just where is it located, by the way? Do you even know?

Pop

[Pop]

===> Aha, kaners abound here too don't they? Don't go away mad, just go away.

It took me a sec to recognize your spew, but I see it now.

Taken a crap lately dude? Yeah, I know; you just did!

[w_tom]

MOVs don't open the circuit. Even grossly undersized power strips that have vaporized MOVs still connect an appliance to AC mains. Where is this disconnection that Pop claims? It does not exist.

A vaporized MOV operates outside of what the manufacturer has intended and designed. Pop, if he had used facts rather than post insults, would have first read those MOV datasheets rather than learn from a BestBuy salesman.

Effective 'whole house' protectors install sufficient joules. The owner never knows a surge exists AND the protector remains functional. Power strips that are undersized will vaporize leaving the appliance exposed to that surge. Then the naive will recommend them and buy more useless protectors at tens of times more money per protected appliance.

The naive will declare, "the protector sacrificed itself to save my computer." Protection already inside the adjacent computer saved that computer. The surge was too small to overwhelm internal computer protection. But the same tiny surge vaporized an undersized, overpriced, and ineffective protector. Why put sufficient joules inside a protector when less joules means Pop will recommend it?

If MOVs worked as Pop claims, then removed MOVs (same as vaporized MOVs) would cause the power strip to stop working. Reality: even the OK light remains illuminated after all MOVs are removed:

Why do power strips with vaporized MOVs still provide power? Because they do not operate as Pop has posted.

Meanwhile code demands that all surge protectors not create flames even if operated beyond its specs. Pop instead tells us that "That surge ... was large enough to jump the gaps of the MOVs once they opened up" Therefore a fire is acceptable? When MOVs vaporize, the spark can continue jumping across the vaporized MOV. That can mean fire. MOVs are not designed to operate open circuited and are not designed to vaporize. MOVs that vaporize - go open circuit - can even create house fires. Why? Because the protectors was so grossly undersized; too few joules.

Learn from what Rob Mills has posted. The last place you want a grossly undersized power strip protector is on a desk full of papers, in dust balls behind furniture, or on a rug. Some pictures demonstrate the problem with grossly undersized plug-in protectors:

And finally: A particularly horrifying fact is that many commercial surge

Funny. That is not how P> ===> Undersized how? They're rated for x joules, more

[G Henslee]

I have a feeling Pop will be here long after you've come, condescended, and disappeared...

[trader4]

And you don't realise that Pop is engaged in a war of words with a guy that is well know for starting flaming threads about surge protection in multiple groups. There is no reasoning with w_tom. Anyone that has valid real world experience with using a plug in surge protector that saved equipment, w_tom tries to either ignore or turn around so that it looks like the surge protector caused damage. Nothing will change his mind. He's hell bent on the idea that plug in surge protectors are of no value, despite many of us having seen them save equipment. Any reasonable person knows that a whole house surge protector is best, but if you don;t have one for whatever reason eg living in an apartment/rental where you have no control, then a plug in is way better than nothing at all. Plus many of the plug ins offer protection for cable and phone, which a whole house does not.

[Pop]

MOVs conduct until the heat causes them to BECOME an open circuit! I haven't seen anyone say the CREATE an open circuit.

That's nonsensical crap above. It means nothing. You obviously not only don't know much about the subject and your reading comprehension appears to be even worse.

"INSTALL JOULES"? Do you even know what a joule IS, or what an equivalency might be? You don't "install" joules.

The owner never knows a surge exists AND the protector

Sometimes. And sometimes everything works fine, but the MOVs have done their job and BECOME OPEN CIRCUITS, which will no longer have a knee voltage at which they begin to turn on at. That does NOT say they open the ckt; it says the MOVs become an open ckt. Learn to read if you're going to give advice. It would also help if you knew what you were talking about.

Power strips that are undersized will

Like I said: What is "undersized"? HOW do you under/over size a power strip? A "power strip" literally does NOT have ANY surge protection. Your terminology is all mixed up.

Then

Possible; anything's possible. Cnn you give a specific example?

So will knowledgeable and experienced electrical engineers and technicians and those with horizontal experience records. "Naive" appears to be a word you like, but not one that is descriptive in the context you're using it in.

Protection already inside the adjacent

NOT if the surge protection clamped the surge down to usable levels. It's also possible after such an event, that the "protection" inside the computer (it's actually in the power supply and telephone connection ckts, by the way) could concievably be no longer in existance. The MOVs could easily have also done their job, and been blown before the "power strip" clamped. You'd have to know the knee voltages and the clamping times to make such a statement as you' ve tried to argue here.

The surge was too small to

HOW was it undersized? Are you aware of the joule ratings used in most PC supplies? And those in the so called "power strips"? I am, and I've evaluated and repaired a LOT of them. THEN you have to go further and consider CMOS damage, whether it's lost ITS protection, and so on.

Why put sufficient joules inside a protector when

You don't PUT JOULES INSIDE a protector!

Of COURSE, you idiot! This is getting comical, and rather pathetic, so I'm going to write you off as a troll and you'll not hear further from me until/unless you find something sane and sensible to say. Your record is pathetic and you are a dangerous person to rely on.

They operate EXACTLY as I said.

This is getting comical, and rather pathetic, so I'm going to write you off as a troll and you'll not hear further from me until/unless you find something sane and sensible to say. Your record is pathetic and you are a dangerous person to rely on.

You're a troll.\\

PLONK! Thud!

[2_Biz_E]

Most of the posts I have read here are very friendly. What is your problem? Is it because it's Usenet and no one knows who you really are? Pop, someday you may find out that things are not so cut and dried as they may seem to be to you. Life (facet) is to short and what we hold dear we hold near. Good luck with your struggle Sir.

:-)

[2_Biz_E]

Just maybe you are right...as I have only about 6 months (more or less)lurking at Usenet. But then maybe not. I believe in treating others as I myself would want to be treated. I simply implied that he is rude, and asked "nobody" simple questions. Thank you for your answer. (-:

[w_tom]

Both cable TV and telephone line installations are required to provide a connection to earth ground according to NEC and FCC regulations. However, those utilities cannot properly earth protection connections if the homeowner did not first provide a common earth ground.

Yes, even ph> And you don't realise that Pop is engaged in a war of words with a guy

[w_tom]

MOV data sheets provide no spec for becoming an open circuit. The charts for MOVs relate three parameters: number of transients, transient current, and time. All factors that determine MOV *degradation*. Degradation means no open circuit failure. Properly sized MOVs degrade - do not vaporize - with use.

A datasheet from one Taiwan MOV manufacturer even defines a number for degradation. A 10% change in the Vb voltage. They provide examples of how an MOV can degrade by 10%. For the 18 series MOVs, a 200 amp (classic 8/20 usec) transient is applied 10,000 times. No open circuit (vaporizing) condition in these tests. 18 series MOV degrades after about 10,000 pulses. Degradation - not vaporization - not open circuit failure - is how MOVs fail when properly sized. An MOV becoming an open circuit (as Pop recommends) is a violation of what MOV manufacturers intend.

In the late 1980s, PC Magazine published two articles about power strip protector failures. MOVs were so undersized as to vaporize - some actually spitting flames. When MOVs became open circuits, then MOVs created a serious human safety risk. A previous post provides numerous pictures of the fire danger. Power strip protectors vaporizing MOVs to create potential house fires.

Since those 1980s articles, the UL created a standard: UL1449 2nd Edition. Urban myth promoters cite UL1449 as proof that a protector is effective. But UL does not care whether a protector protects anything. In fact, the protector can completely fail during testing - and the protector still gets a UL approval. Why? UL's only concern is that a protector does not harm human life. UL does not care whether the protector is effective. They worry about the MOV going open circuit - vaporizing - endangering human life.

How is this UL rating obtained? MOVs are placed in series with a tiny thermal fuse. Fuse that (should) blow before an MOV vaporizes - so that human life is protected. IOW the undersized protector disconnects even quicker - leaving adjacent appliances connected longer to a destructive transient. It blows a fuse so that the MOVs do not go open circuit, do not create fires, protect even less, and get a UL1449 approval.

Pop insists that vaporization is how protectors are suppose to work. Who do we believe? Pop? Or do we believe the UL, MOV manufacturer datasheets, the West Whiteland Fire Department, government laboratories, and the reason for thermal fuses?

Number of joules inside a protector determines it life expectancy. To fail catastrophically, power strip protectors are routinely undersized - too few joules. Therefore humans who don't have technical knowledge will insist vaporization (or blowing thermal fuse) is a normal failure mode, recommend those ineffective protectors to friends, and buy more grossly overpriced, undersized plug-in protectors.

An > "INSTALL JOULES"? Do you even know what a joule IS,

[CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert]

I agree with all stated here except the retributory insults to Pop. Transformers have a way of mellowing out a surge. A surge typically has to pass through a couple of transformers before it reaches a damageable component.

A surge protector does not function like a circuit breaker. In fact breaking the circuit can be worse as it can effectively create a negative surge or an additional voltage spike.

The hardest work for a relay or a switch is breaking the current flow.

[CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert]

FWIW I am also an EE and CE.(computer)

[L. M. Rappaport]

Pop,

There's no nice way to say this. w_tom is an engineer who thoroughly understands earthing. He understands it from not only a theoretical standpoint, but from a practical one as well. You would do well to listen and learn from him. I did, and I'm an electrical engineer with

30 years of experience in communications, which has involved a lot time dealing with remote sites.

When he says "install joules" he means install devices capable of absorbing the energy produced by a lightning strike. When he tells you that most "whole house surge protectors" are woefully inadequate, he is right. Don't listen to me - I'm just an ee who has dealt with this stuff for 30 years - please read the literature: a lot of it is available on the internet.