Tracking down AFCI faults

Sounds to me like it's time the OP withdraws a couple million dollars from his huge bank account and build a new house. :)

But since he has an electrician buddy, why not just have him rewire that entire circuit. Ripping walls apart is NOT the solution. Use WIREMOLD. It all runs on the surface of walls, is code legal, and it can be painted to match the walls.

Of course the first thing to do is unplug everything on that circuit, then remove every outlet, switch and light fixture and look for any problems. It could be as simple as a bad light fixture or outlet where the neutral wire is contacting the metal box. (Actually, if you find a problem, you (OP) may as well replace all the outlets, switches and light fixtures since they were removed).

Reply to
Paintedcow
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If it turns out to be one of the things you listed, I don't see it as much of a problem. It's just unplugging loads, then pulling receptacles and/or switches out. If the fault is somewhere other than an accessible, known outlet, junction box, etc, then it's a different story.

That's probably true, but then we can't see what shape the wiring is really in either.

Reply to
trader_4

Try switching wires at the panel with one of the other AFCI breakers.

Reply to
trader_4

It would seem more logical to work with the switches, receptacles, and fixtures before cutting out and replacing the feed behind a plaster wall. But, heh, that's me.

Reply to
trader_4

And as an additional feature, it looks like hell. I might use it in a mud room, but I wouldn't want it in my living room. And if it comes to painting, might just as well patch and paint a few holes in the wall, where necessary, IMO.

Reply to
trader_4

I don't understand that test methodology at all. Which side of the AFCI are they telling you to plug into the receptacle? And even if somehow this could detect a fault and trip, so what? It tells you that the fault is somewhere on the circuit, which you already know.

You have an AFCI doing what it's supposed to do, tripping, indicating that you have a potentially serious problem that could burn the house down. And your reaction is to replace it with a regular breaker?

The circuit is daisy-chained. The logical thing to do is:

1 - Remove all the plug-in loads

2 - Pick a receptacle, switch, or junction box near the middle of the run. Disconnect everything downstream and see if it still trips. Then continue the process on the half that has the fault.

This isn't anywhere near as bad as you're making it sound, at least not so far. I could have it isolated in an hour. You say isolating the fault is more work than running two new receptacles? I doubt that. And what good is running two new receptacles if you don't know which parts of that existing circuit contain the fault?

Reply to
trader_4

Router can't be down for an hour? What did you do when you replaced the panel?

Since this is apparently so much trouble for you, why don't you just pay your electrician buddy to fix the remaining problem?

Reply to
trader_4

It's all relative - one young lady exclaimed it was like have her "bodice ripped" just like the potboiler paperbacks! Back when I went through puberty girls weren't even wearing bras (wimmen's libbers)! Solved the problem directly. Ah, the golden age of the Free Love seventies when a woman was just as likely to undress YOU first. I don't recall ever having to go through all the bases back then. Women on the street (not just on TV) actually wore microskirts and see-through-blouses. Then came AIDS and pantyhose and the party was over. But I "digest."

EVERYTHING was easier back then, or so it seems to my aching back.

Last weeks "Life in Pieces" (about the only good new sitcom I've found, 70 year old James Brolin gets his grey hair dyed jet black and restyled 70's style. His wife is fine with it until they go shopping and the clerk says something that ends in "your son." Then she says, "dye it back!"

Well, because I have other things to do and not having light or power on those circuits is problematic. I've shunted all the loads I can without stringing the house with 50' extension cords -- a technique that has remarklably low SWMBO approval ratings. I might rethink that as I get down to real testing. Somehow, with the old breaker connected things seem far less urgent than with that circuit dead. I was lying in bed (you apparently don't sleep much, Buckaroo!) thinking -- got a new panel, got 5 working AFCI's out of 6, got a new main breaker (part of the new panel) and legitimate room for expansion -- so why beat myself up about one farking AFCI breaker that might even be bad? We even down-graded a 15A circuit back to a 15A breaker instead of the 20A that someone had put in. So things are immeasurably better.

While it does bother me that there's something sizzling away in the walls or somewhere it doesn't bother me so much that I was unable to fall asleep. How DOES the AFCI figure out there's a bad connection out there?

Got a huge, ancient porcelain-based knife switch that HAS to be break before make. But there's a lot of exposed copper which makes it probably more dangerous than an enclosed switch. How do you tell if it's make before break? Why would anyone ever want to make before break unless the circuit can not tolerate being unloaded?

This situation has a built in nag factor. My buddy said he would come back when I had traced the arc fault down so I probably have to show a good faith effort. He was unhappy about leaving the breaker hanging and the cover off but I told him I was just going to uncover it anyway and leaving it hanging would make swapping it out faster.

AFTER he installs the box he tells me that new AFCI panels have an extra neutral rail -- no more farking pigtails. I asked why we didn't use that and he said so we could reuse the old (actually quite new) breakers. So I agreed.

It would have been nice to get one of those smart panels but you would never recapture that expense upon resale and I am not sure knowing how much juice every circuit is using would be useful. At least I think that's what a smart panel does -- now that I think about it, I am not sure.

TKS

Reply to
Texas Kingsnake

Anything short of a firlmy clamped (screwed) connection is liable to GIVE you an arc fault

Reply to
clare

You got away easy. My panel replacement and GFCI upgrades, including 1 AFCI and several 2 pole GFCI breakers and 4 GFCI outlets - 125 amp panel, and inspections didn't give me much change from $3G

Reply to
clare

Wiremold is my LAST choice when doing that work. I'll pull a feed up a chase into the attic, and drill down from the attic to existing boxes before I'll install that eysore in my house. I grew up helping my dad on rewires and rural electrification, and he'd pull wires into places you would consider impossible, making very few small holes in walls. When he wired our first house in town (88 years old in 1957) he lifted a few floorboards in the upstairs (no attic - 1 1/2 storey house) and did all the wiring either from there or the basement.

I learned a few tricks from him!!

Reply to
clare

It seems to be a different story. There is a LOT of stuff blocking places I need to get to. A huge antique sideboard that takes 4 men to lift is blocking one outlet and the other is behind an equally bulky dresser.

The old wiring is ungrounded and well over 50 years old. It is run from the basement into an uninsulated wall cavity, then up to the attic (loaded with boxes of the cardboard type) and then down through the wall to the boxes. Both outlets on the problem circuit are on the outside wall where they are exposed to temperature variants and condensation. Moving what's in front of them won't be easy for me. I don't think I could do it even with my friend helping. That's why this is such a bitch.

As I said before, running new, 20A grounded circuits is actually easier because there are areas where I can use my HF oscillating tool to excavate some plaster for a new outlet and drill through the floor a lot faster than moving heavy stuff around in an attempt to preserve an old, 15A ungrounded cable run. Old plumbing and wiring do NOT like to be bothered much.

I've also read that the arcing can be caused by bad wire nuts and they are in metal boxes which would limit ignition possibilities. So I am going to just plod along, map out the circuit as best I can. If removing all loads doesn't clear the problem, I will kill the problem circuit and run two new ones. I didn't know until this happened that the bedroom and living room outlets (actually just half of them) share a breaker. I would rather have both served by separate grounded outlets and breakers.

TKS

Reply to
Texas Kingsnake

When I can get my friend back (he's doing me a big favor so I don't want to abuse that) we will disconnected, temporarily, ALL the non-AFCI circuits, one after the other, through an AFCI that we know works.

If we found one circuit out of 14 with an arc fault using only 6 AFCI breakers, statistically speaking we should find at least another circuit with an arc fault. That is when we will swap breakers as you and others have suggested.

TKS

Reply to
Texas Kingsnake

Hum, if the circuit heads for the attic, a small roof leak could have gotten a junction box wet and the water could have dripped into a connection and caused it to become a high resistance fault that starts arcing under load. I know one thing about your problem, you must post what you found or some of these guys might come looking for you. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Fault Monster =============================================== I am PAINFULLY aware of that and it is one reason I would be willing to abandon that circuit completely if the easy fixes do not clear the fault. It really is a lot easier to run a new circuit in an unfinished basement than it is to trace wires through plaster and lath. I agree with others -- all the easy stuff should be checked first -- loads, outlets, switches and sockets. But if that doesn't clear the fault, the circuit gets abandoned and replaced by new 12 gage romex with GROUND and GFCI protection.

TKS

Reply to
Texas Kingsnake

Someone else noticed that on a home improvement list. No sense hunting down an arc fault with a Rube Goldberg setup that will CREATE them.

TKS

Reply to
Texas Kingsnake

Yes. I was thinking the same. Of course, if a couple of these guys came over on the weekend and did all this stuff, I am sure my wife would be happy to feed them.

NO WIREMOLD - EVER! Sorry - personal preference. I have an unfinished basement so running new outlets is actually pretty easy compared to ripping up plaster and lath.

When they come out with a paint that makes the Wiremold flush with the walls, I will take another look. Until then, new romex from the basement if I can't clear the fault.

That may be where I stop.

Or it could be a nail in the wall somewhere that finally wore it's way through the insulation. If this doesn't fix easily, it's new wiring.

My experience is that anytime you pull this ragwire that's stuffed tightly into small boxes, you are likely to be fixing one problem and creating another. I broke off one wire pulling the outlet I thought was a problem. Fortunately it was just the part under the screw and it looks to have been nicked by a bad strip job.

TKS

Reply to
Texas Kingsnake

pretty

Have you ever used a megger (Megohmmeter insulation tester)? I own one but the meters can be rented. It could be one thing you could to check the questionable circuit. You could compare readings from the good circuits to the bad one to give you some idea where the fault is. It should be a lot of fun. ^_^

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[8~{} Uncle Faulty Monster ========================================== Thanks for the info. I see them on Amazon for around $60. Great for motor work, it seems, not sure I would use it much. If the fault doesn't clear easily, I will run new circuits which, in an unfinished basement, is far less work than playing cable detective looking for the Maltese Arc Fault. Gets me new, 12 gage wire with ground and GFCI, too. The boxes used in this house won't accommodate the GFCIs I've tried to stuff in them.

Learned another interesting trick. In an unfinished basement you can mount GFCI feeder outlets near the panel so that when something blows, all the circuit breakers and GFCI's are in one location. Better to use GFCI breakers, I know, but those fraking things cost a fortune! Anyone know of the NEC limits how many outlets you can have in one room or area?

TKS

Reply to
Texas Kingsnake

Probably will, but that does not stop me from wanting to get as much information as I can for him before he comes. In this case I will have pulled all the loads I can before he reinstalls it. This is all complicated by who is around to help me, when his schedule permits, etc.

TKS

Reply to
Texas Kingsnake

LOL...Do we have a hoarder living in the house?

Reply to
Jack Legg

Actually it IS the way it is done today, in MANY cases. Lights in one room and outlets in another on one circuit - opposite on another circuit - so if you kick a braker on an outlet, the lights don't go out in the same room.

If You have a big enough panel, and can afford the copper, each room having a separate lignting and load circuit would be ideal - with every room having at least 2 breakers, and each breaker searving only one location(room). That is, however, not practical..

Reply to
clare

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