Boy, you really are dumb. Thinking that the small possible resistance difference between a neutral and ground connected at the outlet versus at the panel is going to make a difference in the brightness of LEDs?
If that was possible using your method, folks a lot smarter than you would have figured it out a long time ago.
=A0>There wasn't
Oh no! I[m totally shocked! About as shocked as if you reported that you stuck your wiener in the outlet and got shocked. Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting you do that, but would be quite happy if you did.
You should do that before making an ass of yourself.
I can think of ways of how to do it that would work.
Which of course, as usual, has nothing to do with the discussion.
I have never seen copper clad. I haven't seen much aluminum 15/20A branch circuit wire either. My understanding was that copper clad was late in the period when aluminum was used for branch circuits to eliminate the surface oxide problem, which would match with what you wrote. Given the problems around 1970 I would think copper would have to get pretty expensive to see aluminum used for branch circuits again. Would be interesting how trouble free "new technology" copper clad aluminum wire is, used with CO/ALR devices. Might be as good as copper.
I wouldn't want to use aluminum or copper clad for thermostat or signal wires either. Opinions of punch down block and RJ jack manufacturers would be interesting.
It's possible but I'd think the false-positives (and negatives) would make the tool useless. One could measure the inductance of the N-G path. I don't think the tool would sell anyway. The number of "tricked" N-G connections in the country has to be exceedingly small.
It's possible but I don't see a market for it and there would, necessarily be false indications, further driving down the market (and liability up).
I don't believe I've ever seen copper clad either. From the description I read, it's supposed to be soft and pliable, and when you cut it, you should see the aluminum center. On rare occasions, I've run into very soft copper conductors, which I just assumed was a manufacturing issue. I've also run into very hard, almost brittle copper conductors. Maybe the soft ones were clad, and my dull pliers just wiped the copper over the aluminum.
Was the cost of copper so much more than aluminum that it made copper clading cost effective?
When one considers the costs of the R&D to get the ratios right, the retooling of the factory to manufacture the clad wire (including the additional spare parts, training of workers and repair technicians, documentation, etc.) the approval process to get it NEC approved, etc. etc. it seems that the cost of copper would have to exceed the cost of aluminum by a substantial amount for a long, long time in order to make up the cost to switch over to clad.
I think HB was suggesting that the ground-neutral link be removed. Of course, that only works if the grounds and neutrals are separated on their respective bars.
I still love the look of a well-soldered connection. That baby will outlast the building with no chance of working loose. But, I'll gladly use a soldering gun or electric iron instead of a blowtorch.
Not as dumb as your mother when your Dad told her she couldn't get pregnant through anal intercourse. And then 9 months later, YOU were born! (-: See, *anyone* can be insulting. It's much harder to be right. You've been riding my butt for a long time, Trader (family tradition of yours?). But not forever. You want to throw down, then OK, we'll throw down.
Bzzt. Wrong answer, once again! Mr. Know It All, I regret to inform you that someone did build that tester and you just didn't know about it. You've once again proved why you're our resident "stupidist." You're so eager to insult, you didn't even see Bud's post about the Ideal plug-in tester series. Insulting people AND getting it wrong? Priceless. You make this so easy. Now people will read your cartoon theories on economics and politics, Chetnik, and wonder "is that all bluster and bullshi+, too?" Doncha just hate yourself right about now?
Obviously there's some measurable/detectable difference between a real ground and a "bootleg" ground and this unit detects it by just plugging into a wall outlet. Educate yourself Trader:
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It's apparently the number once choice of home inspectors specializing in electrical inspections, at least based upon the numerous posted reviews. That's because it detects so many faults that are very difficult to detect without removing the circuit panel cover or disconnecting wires.
Here's what Amazon says about it.
Thanks for providing another item to add to my ever growing list of "Trader/Chet tries to insult someone else but only foolishly insults himself" folder. Chet, it doesn't take very many brains to be nasty and insulting. Clearly, you've got that part down. But it does take brains to get it right. For you, that will take some doing.
As has been suggested, by Mr. Hofmann and others, there's obviously a measurable difference at the outlet between a bootlegged ground - an outlet's ground connector pig-tailed to the neutral - and a proper ground. The only question is how does the Ideal device make that determination and will they tell me if I ask them? (-: I believe from reading about the device's capabilities, Mr. Hofmann was correct - the ability of the Ideal tester to detect a bootlegged ground is based on resistance readings. There's less resistance between a 2 or 3 inch pigtail and perhaps a 25 foot or longer wiring run. Or do things work differently on planet Trader?
Now, Chet, let's hear you stutter like Porky Pig as you try to explain you didn't actually mean what you wrote. If I know you, that's going to be as much fun as watching Larry Craig trying to explain his "wide stance." Again. I know I shouldn't enjoy this so much, but when a guy who regularly and thoughtlessly insults entire groups of people steps on his own joint, and then grinds his shoe on it, you just gotta love it.
I knew you were a very hateful, unhappy person, Chet, but I didn't think that you were this hateful. No wonder you support involving the US in meaningless war after war. You're a typical warmonger. You rant on and on about going to Syria while you're demanding huge spending cuts. That's Trader's logic. Cut the deficit by getting into another costly war halfway around the world. I was right. Your daddy *really* must have beat the crap out of you to twist you up this badly. "Wibwoon, Wibwoon!" Got any cleated golf shoes handy? Put them on the next time you step on your willie. Maybe that way you'll learn not to.
Who has made an ass out of whom, Trader? You're as confused as ever. Next time, try taking your own advice and you won't look so uninformed and spiteful. You couldn't make me happier if you tried, Chet. You ought to pull in your horns before you gore your credibility to death. (-:
But you didn't list any. Joe McCarthy, your soul brother, had a list, too. He couldn't *show* it to anybody, either.
In case you missed it, DD_BobK posted a website a while back that talks about some testers that displayed dimmed LEDs depending on unusual fault conditions:
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That's why I decided to rig up a test outlet to verify my unit's capabilities. It's something I learned from Ronald Reagan: "trust but verify." A bootlegged ground is not a "usual fault" condition. I'm sorry if my testing doesn't meet with your approval. About as sorry as I am over Sarah and John losing to Barack. (-: Wait, I forgot, you're "analogically challenged." This should be easier for you to understand: "I don't give a flying fu& about what you think, Chet, and never will."
Jeez, you got that wrong, too, Snarky. You're so easily blinded by rage. Do you have to make this a turkey shoot? That's no fun. Still, if you want to chip away at your own credibility, I'll give you all the help you need.
What you meant to say is that "As usual, my hate-filled brain is so anxious and determined to insult Bobby that I missed the obvious connection." The People's Court case has everything to do with the previous thread statements concerning what a home seller will allow a home buyer to do, as in remove a circuit panel door - like a boat buyer asking to remove a cylinder head. Do you make the connection now?
Let me try it another way in case you're still blinded by rage: There appears to be a limit to what you can ask of a seller. For at least one boat owner, it seems pulling the cylinder head was his limit. Asking to remove a circuit panel door or disconnect wires and run wiring tests might not meet with approval from a lot of home sellers. Capiche?
Very simple analogy. But not, apparently, for you, the guy who previously tried to insult me by saying mine was the "stupidist" analogy he had ever seen. Only you could try to insult someone's intelligence and spell "stupidest" incorrectly while attempting it. "BANG!" Chet shoots his foot again. Now you've conclusively proved you're the one that's "analogically" challenged. Probably something to do with your anal nativity. (-" Yet you have the chutzpah to call other people dumb. A man will often accuse others of what he is most guilty of himself. Why are you so determined to prove it over and over and over again?
How do you feed yourself if you can't figure these simple things out, Chet?
As I think I wrote before, my Ecos tester puts a relatively high current pulse from H-N and measures the N-G voltage. The voltage will be about zero if the N and G are connected at the receptacle. If N and G are connected at the N-G bond at the panel there will be a measurable voltage - the voltage drop on the neutral to the panel. If the branch circuit length to the panel is only about 20 feet there won't be enough voltage to reliably measure and Ecos will indicate a bootleg ground.
Ideal has a similar short distance limitation and can also inject current pulses into the branch circuit. It is likely Ideal uses the same method.
I don't think it is likely you can use a voltmeter or LED tester to find a bootleg ground. You could connnect a 15A load H-N and look at the N-G voltage, but it is rather involved and wouldn't work so good for a home inspector.
The Ideal tester can make many other measurements including some that a home inspector wouldn't know what they mean.
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