Repair heat pump, or replace it?

[mark_mace31]

Hi, I don't know much about this subject, so please bear with me...I am visiting from college, and just found out my mom had a problem with her heat pump.

The heat pump will no longer shut off. The fan control at the thermostat works, but no matter what, the outside unit continues to run.

She switched the circuit breaker off upon realizing the problem.

The unit is 20 years old. If it matters at all, the unit is branded "Payne high efficience heat pump", and is white/off-white with a green grill. Again, if it matters, her house is a 20-yr. old double-wide mobile home.

It was last serviced in June of '05. The service was to top off the coolant, and "check it over", at least in theory.

She lives about 30 minutes from town, so I assume a service call would be somewhat expensive for her. Should she call for a repair or would it make more sense to just go for a replacement at this point? Thanks,

Note: Sorry for the double-post, I initially put this in the alt.hvac forum, until it was suggested I move it here.

[trader4]

At 20 years old, it's at the end of it's expected life. Plus new ones are more efficient, which will help to reduce energy costs and pay for itself. So, I wouldn't put more than a couple hundred bucks into repairing this one. But, until you get someone out to look at it, you won't know what's wrong or if it's worth fixing.

[Dr. Hardcrab]

wrote

If it's 20 years old (and a Payne!) she probably should just change the system out. When the fan continues to run, is it putting out heat? The reason I ask, if it's just the fan that continues to run, it SHOULDN'T but it won't hurt anything. If the fan is running AND putting out heat (when it should be off) then it sound like a sequensor is stuck or maybe a wire crossed (or several other possibilities) and that is not good. It will never shut off and it may get kind of hot in the house.

She needs to get at least 3 REPUTABLE companies to come out and give her a quote (not an estimate) on replacing the system. If it's just the fan running (and not the heat) she doesn't need to rush into it. A lot of people run the fan 24 hours a day for filtration purposes. Sure it uses a little bit more electricity, but not that much. I only say this because you don't want to jump into this without "shopping" around. Don't worry so much about the brand as much as the guy installing it.

Now to really confuse things: You may want to just have someone come out and repair it. It might be something as simple as a stuck sequencer or fan relay. But if they came out and June and "topped it off", there may be a leak and future problems.

Good luck....

[mark_mace31]

Thanks....Hm...I don't know if it was putting out heat while the fan was on...I asked earlier actually, but she didn't know. However, my mom said she smelled a "burning smell"...given the odor, is it advisable to turn the circut breaker back on & see if it produces heat?

& sorry, I was misleading about "topped it off", I don't know that there was a leak per-se, or just getting it general AC "maintenance" before the true heat of summer.

[Dr. Hardcrab]

You could try that. If you can at least get her through the weekend. Service charge would be a little easier to swallow.

You might not want to call THAT company.

[Bob]

The fan running all the time suggests a stuck relay contact to me. If it turns on and heats properly, it is probably a simple fix. Sometimes just tapping on the offending part with a screwdriver handle will knock it loose for awhile.

Bob

[Stretch]

The outdoor unit running all the time indicates a stuck contactor as the most likely problem. A new contactor should cost $20 to $30 plus diagnosis and installation. I can change a contactor in 15 minutes, and diagnose in in 15 minutes, so you will probably fall under the minimum labor charge plus parts. It could also be a bad thermostat or short in the thermostat cable, but those would need fixed anyway if you replace the unit, so they are not going to make a difference in the repair or replace discussion.

Whether to replace or not would depend some on her electric bills. If her electric bills are low, I would fix it. If they are high, a new high efficiency system (Both indoor & outdoor) may be a good idea even if it weren't broken. By the way, there is a $300 Federal tax credit for Energy Star rated high efficiency systems, starting in January

2006.

Stretch

[Bubba]

Now where in the hell are you going to find a service company that is going to change a contactor and charge you $20 or $30 for that part + a minimum labor charge? Nowhere! because if they do they wont be in business but about a week or two. These trucks dont roll, salaries dont get paid, health insurance doesnt get paid, gasoline doesnt fill the truck, liability insurance dont get paid and the tax man wont get his share by someone collecting $20 for a part and a minimum labor charge. Nice try though. Bubba

[mm]

Don't forget to turn it back on when it gets cold in the house.

How hot was it getting by the way?

I would try to find where the burning smell is coming from before the smell goes away. It might be important, and it might certainly help you or a service man find a problem, if the smell is caused by the heat pump and if the smell is related to a problem.

And I agree with Mark at the bottom.

on and heats

part with a

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[mark_mace31]

OK, thanks very much everyone, stuck contactor seems to be the most common suggestion.

The burning smell was before I even got here, so unfortuantely I don't know where that was coming from (it may have been in her head too, as she was not certain about it)

My brother came by today (he's a police officer, but use to be in construction, & has some broad knowledge of home repair and such). He reset the circuit breakers that were inside the heat pump itself...turned it back on and everything is going fine so far...

I'm going to leave it on for the weekend while I'm here, and see if the problem repeats. I plan on turning it off at night, so that nothing gets damaged when I would be asleep and unaware. (I'm house sitting for my mom)

I also plan on checking my mom's electicity bills...And thanks for the info on the tax credit! I was vaguely aware of something like that, as well as a program here in the state of Oregon I looked into a year ago for her (since her heat pump was getting old any way)

The house has a wood stove, so heat isn't as critical as it could be.

Again, thanks everyone very much! I'll post if there is any new information...and please let me know if anyone has any other input (especially if I'm doing something foolish)

[Frank Boettcher]

Be careful. Has to be more than just Energy Star rated to get the tax credit. Go on the Energy Star site and make sure that what you are buying will qualify. Because it is a manufactured home, it may be a packaged unit. When I bought mine three weeks ago, no packaged heat pump in the tonnage range I needed qualified because no packaged heat pump met the 9 HSPH requirement.

[Stretch]

Now where in the hell are you going to find a service company that is going to change a contactor and charge you $20 or $30 for that part + a minimum labor charge? Nowhere! because if they do they wont be in business but about a week or two. These trucks dont roll, salaries dont get paid, health insurance doesnt get paid, gasoline doesnt fill the truck, liability insurance dont get paid and the tax man wont get his share by someone collecting $20 for a part and a minimum labor charge. Nice try though. Bubba

Sorry Bubba, but I do that. So do some others. We charge $68/ hour. The contactor I sell for about $20.00. We have a half hour minimum charge for residential work. We have no trip charge. We are shooting for 10% net pretax profit, which we have exceeded the last three years. If I went on that call and it was a bad contactor, the charge would be $34.00 labor + $20,00 Part = $54.00 total. Tax is included in the part. By the way, I just bought a new 2500 Chevy van, paid 1/3 down. We have more diagnostic tools than many larger companies that I know of. We carry more parts than most any other company in our service area. We are profitable.

The OP said the outdoor unit ran constantly while the indoor blower cycled. That sounds like a stuck contactor. You may free it up for a while, but it will likely re-occur.

Stretch

[Bubba]

Stretch, Sorry bud but No freakin way. You have another company or something subsidizing your ridiculously low prices. $54 to replace a contactor?? I used to charge that about 12 years ago and Im NOT kidding. No way would your business survive with that kind of pricing. Bubba

[Dr. Hardcrab]

"Bubba >" >Sorry Bubba, but I do that. So do some others. We charge $68/ hour.

I'll have to second that.

Maybe 10 or 12 years ago we charged that. Our company is cheap and we sell our regular Honeywell 2-pole contactor for about $32 and we have a standard service call of $109 an hour. No more 1/2 hour rates. How in the world would you ever pay your bills with a $54 charge? You must be a "loner" (1 man company) that can afford to do that.

We don't charge trip charge either....

[Goedjn]

How much of your overhead is a function of where you live, though?

[Al Moran]

And I'll third that. We charge 211.00 for the contactor and 59.00 for the service call. Gotta pay the bills. The person that said they charge 59.00 is a one man band or some such, otherwise there is no way a real company could stay in business at those prices.

[Red Neckerson]

What exactly do you mean?

[Goedjn]

I't important to remember that one's personal experience, while relevent, doesn't describe the whole world. The fact that YOU can't make a living doing service calls at $50 a pop in your area doesn't necessarily mean that someone else can't, somewhere else.

You have to pay a living wage to you employees, and yourself, but what constitutes a living wage in most of, say, California is significantly more than what it takes in, say Colebrook, NH. Likewise, auto insurance, permits, business liscences, liability insurance, utility bills. . . about the only thing that's likely to be the same is the price of the physical part, and in most cases, that's a surprisingly small fraction of the total cost of doing business.

[mm]

If there is a burning smell in her head, she should see a certified furnace repairman or doctor** as soon as possible.

**A headologist.

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[John Normile]

This summer I had a service call for my A/C not starting. A service man quickly found a bad capacitor, and replaced it. Capicator = $8 Service Call = $70

John Normile