Re TILING What an easy job!

[srazor]

> Do people realize how simple most projects are? > > Craftsmen are thieves.

I am really insulted by that comment!

Sure, tiling is easy until your tile job fails due to lack of proper preperation and/or application. What deflection criteria did you use and at what live load level, L/360, L/240 - 40, 30 20 or 10 psf? How long did you let the thinset slake for?

How much is your free time worth (obviously less than $45 per hour) How long did it take you to prep the floor and install the tile? how long did it take you to research the proper techniques for doing so. In total how much time and money was spent? You apparently have the free time and skill to do a tile job. most professionals making $60K plus per year and working 40 or more hours per week don't I have MANY repeat customers that pay me $55-70 per hour for tiling, plumbing, etc because: i guarantee my work, I disrupt my clients lives as little as possible, do outstanding work, etc etc.

Is a doctor a thief becuase he/she charges you $150 for a 10 min visit to his/her PA for a prescription for antibiotics?

[kellyj00]

you're right about the tile thing, and possibly about the Doctor thing... but dentistry... that's thievery.

Professional craftsmen know a WHOLE lot more than my dentist does, but don't make nearly as much. I had a "cleaning and xray" recently that cost $115. The "dentist" only participated for about 5 minutes... she pays a "hygenist" or whatever they're called (college students in scrubs) to wipe your teeth down at about $10 an hour (seriously, used to date one) then visits with you and looks a few things over... but you gotta get your teeth filled I guess, and that's somehting I really can't DIY.

Chimney sweeps...same thing. One came out for a cleaning (good idea) cost me $50...then he proceeded to inform me that "my chimney is unsafe and WILL burn my house down to use it" He only asked for $1500 to install a "liner" in my "cracking, unsafe flue".

I hired another company to look it over for $40. They said that a liner is pointless for a chimney that is in "the best shape as any they had seen from that era".

In short, you can do my tile for $70 hr... the jobs a bit different though... I want you to put 12" floor tile on the windshields of each of the fireplace fellas trucks...using 4x liquid nails poly construction adhesive.

end of rant.

[kellyj00]

disregard my rant... I'm not serious about causing any property damage or ill intent to the chimney guy. He's just trying to make a living...although it SEEMS like he's doing it at the expense of unexpecting homeowners.

Especially since the second guy asked how long it had been since it had been cleaned. I said "a week ago, hasn't been burned in since" he replied "with all due respect, you really want to hire a professional to have it cleaned. Doing it yourself, you leave the corners of your flue coated in creosote... see..." and then pointed his flashlight down the flue to show me where "I" missed.

I told him who did it and he grinned like a possum eating grapes. "Next time, make sure he's at least using the proper brush. Round brushes don't work so good in square holes"

[Avery]

preperation and/or application. What deflection criteria did you use and at what live load level, L/360, L/240 - 40, 30 20 or 10 psf? How long did you let the thinset slake for?

did it take you to prep the floor and install the tile? how long did it take you to research the proper techniques for doing so. In total how much time and money was spent? You apparently have the free time and skill to do a tile job. most professionals making $60K plus per year and working 40 or more hours per week don't I have MANY repeat customers that pay me $55-70 per hour for tiling, plumbing, etc because: i guarantee my work, I disrupt my clients lives as little as possible, do outstanding work, etc etc.

his/her PA for a prescription for antibiotics?

Ive just finished two bathrooms. The first time I have tried such a thing. I found it to be relatively easy and the finished job is very good.

Fortunately I had nice flat areas that needed little preparation, I used relatively cheap tiles so wasteage wasn't a problem and it only took 7 months to do the job.

I was able to take the first bathroom out of action for 4 months and just use the second one until the first was finished. And no, I wasn't quicker with the second. It was much smaller.

I did it because I wanted to - not because I didn't want to pay a professional. I'm pleased I did , but I am sure that I saved very little if anything at all.

However if I was using expensive materials, there was the slightest hint of a problem or I wanted it done in a week, I would not hesitate to call a pro. and pay whatever the going rate is.

There are many jobs that an amateur can do properly provided everything goes right or you have the time to rip it out and do it again and again......

[MRS. CLEAN]

It's good to know that you'll be picking someone else's pocket.

I will learn the job and DIY when I see all the licenses ripping off poor unsuspecting folks.

I have learned you must learn the job in order to protect yourself from all the thieves anyway.

Yes, I will spend the $500 to do the 300 sf of tiling myself and it won't need to be redone.

Oh, and I will re-do the sink next month now that I have spent a little time educating me about the job and I will spend about $200 instead of $2000. Forget the guarantee and the disruption selling points. I will protect my paycheck instead.

preperation and/or application. What deflection criteria did you use and at what live load level, L/360, L/240 - 40, 30 20 or 10 psf? How long did you let the thinset slake for?

did it take you to prep the floor and install the tile? how long did it take you to research the proper techniques for doing so. In total how much time and money was spent? You apparently have the free time and skill to do a tile job. most professionals making $60K plus per year and working 40 or more hours per week don't I have MANY repeat customers that pay me $55-70 per hour for tiling, plumbing, etc because: i guarantee my work, I disrupt my clients lives as little as possible, do outstanding work, etc etc.

his/her PA for a prescription for antibiotics?

[MRS. CLEAN]

Congratulations! You're teaching your children well.

Avery wrote:

preperation and/or application. What deflection criteria did you use and at what live load level, L/360, L/240 - 40, 30 20 or 10 psf? How long did you let the thinset slake for?

did it take you to prep the floor and install the tile? how long did it take you to research the proper techniques for doing so. In total how much time and money was spent? You apparently have the free time and skill to do a tile job. most professionals making $60K plus per year and working 40 or more hours per week don't I have MANY repeat customers that pay me $55-70 per hour for tiling, plumbing, etc because: i guarantee my work, I disrupt my clients lives as little as possible, do outstanding work, etc etc.

his/her PA for a prescription for antibiotics?

[Malcolm Hoar]

A professional does indeed have many costs including:

• Taxes and other payroll related costs

• Advertizing and marketing costs

• Insurance costs

These costs are real and perfectly legitimate. But they're not things I really care to pay for.

I can avoid a lot of those costs if I do the work myself. It's a better value proposition, for me. Apart from that, I can do *some* jobs as well as, if not better than, a "professional".

But there are other jobs I cannot do (or do well enough) and I often pay someone else to perform those services. Sometimes I'm happy with the price charged and sometimes I'm not. I'm rarely unhappy with the material and labor cost (if the job's done right) but I still feel bad about the all the money that ends up in the pockets of the various parasites along the way (however real and legit they may be).

It's also perfectly reasonable for a professional to want paying for his/her travel time. But it's still a waste as far as I'm concerned. So when I do hire a pro, I always *try* to find someone very, very local.

[jeffreydesign]

Let's face it, *SOME* people shouldn't do anything on their own home. They aren't willing to read books, research on the internet, ask around and do the *WORK* needed to do the job right. For the rest of us homeowners who *DO* all of that, tiling isn't so hard and if you do the prep work and if you KNOW what you're doing you can do every bit as good a job as any professional and a lot better job than most. Why? Because it's MY HOUSE. It's MY investment. Contractors (of which I am one) care about repeat customers but really they are there to pay their bills (in other words, for the money) and that's honorable enough, but they don't have the same investment as I do. Contractors do have many legitimate expenses (I ought to know) that justify their rates. I get a lot of work just from people who see my house and want theirs to look as nice as mine does but they don't have the time, inclination nor do they *WANT* to do the work. I feel like they're really missing out on the satifaction of a job well done, but hey, if they want to give me that *AND* pay me to do it, fine. I love my work and it shows. On the other hand, I have no problem telling a homeowner (one that has the intelligence necessary) how to do a job, or prep for a job to save them some money. I don't need their money that bad! I also don't mind doing some "pro se" work on behalf of deserving individuals.

I have found that it's good for the homeowner to actually see what's involved with a job. If that doesn't scare them, then by all means they should do their own work. Tile work isn't brain surgery and I have seen some excellent homeowner installs. on the other hand, electrical, some plumbing and a few other jobs are best left to the pros for safety and code compliance reasons.

-Jeff

srazor wrote:

preperation and/or application. What deflection criteria did you use and at what live load level, L/360, L/240 - 40, 30 20 or 10 psf? How long did you let the thinset slake for?

did it take you to prep the floor and install the tile? how long did it take you to research the proper techniques for doing so. In total how much time and money was spent? You apparently have the free time and skill to do a tile job. most professionals making $60K plus per year and working 40 or more hours per week don't I have MANY repeat customers that pay me $55-70 per hour for tiling, plumbing, etc because: i guarantee my work, I disrupt my clients lives as little as possible, do outstanding work, etc etc.

his/her PA for a prescription for antibiotics?

[MRS. CLEAN]

And, it's MY PAYCHECK. I will determine where it goes.

I am just sick and tired of the licensed crooks who show up, do a poor job, and drag it > Let's face it, *SOME* people shouldn't do anything on their own home.

preperation and/or application. What deflection criteria did you use and at what live load level, L/360, L/240 - 40, 30 20 or 10 psf? How long did you let the thinset slake for?

long did it take you to prep the floor and install the tile? how long did it take you to research the proper techniques for doing so. In total how much time and money was spent? You apparently have the free time and skill to do a tile job. most professionals making $60K plus per year and working 40 or more hours per week don't I have MANY repeat customers that pay me $55-70 per hour for tiling, plumbing, etc because: i guarantee my work, I disrupt my clients lives as little as possible, do outstanding work, etc etc.

his/her PA for a prescription for antibiotics?

[krw]

Very enlightened attitude. I've gotten some good tips from several tradesmen and appreciate their help.

I've done quite a bit of tile (enough to buy a wet saw ;-). I agree, it's not brain surgery, but it is hard work and takes time take time.

Some plumbing, maybe. Though replacing or repairing fixtures is certainly within a DIYers capability. Residential electrical is simple. Some is hard work, but it's quite straight forward.

I had TnG bamboo put down a couple of years ago. Knowing what I do now I'd do it myself and know I could do a better job. OTOH, vinyl flooring and carpeting are two jobs I leave to the pros.

[kellyj00]

Here's a bit of a tangent related to this post. I have a few friends who have participated in a "mennonite housing initiative" where they "self-help" each other build entire homes. They get about seven families together and give them the same floor plan. There is one supervisor contractor who oversees all the work and gives advice where needed, but for the most part they're on their own.

They hire out concrete work, plumbing and electrical. But, in their case, they just went ahead and ran many of the pipes and romex themselves to save costs for easy stuff and basically paid a fella just to hook the load centers to the municipal power.

Anyhow... they all got 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom 1300 square foot houses with unfinished basements, two car attached garages and 1% mortgage interest rates. Their work (over a years worth of evenings and weekends) became their down payment. Their homes are all valued at around $120,000 in this region, and their mortgages are around

80,000... the cost of materials and the labor for what they hired out.

They threw a party for halloween where all the neighbors (and their 100 or so kids showed up at one house) and all the fellas stood around and talked about finishing their basements as a team. "I'm really pretty good at taping" "I did all the carpet for the upstairs, I can do it downstairs for everyone too." It's amazing how well that system works.

I've recruited two of them to help me redo my roof, just because I've seen how good of a job they've done on seven houses every time I drive down that street.

[krw]

It does (Habitat for Humanity is similar). My father's friends did similar things for each other, including pouring a concrete driveway and they built a brick veneer block garage. I've tried to get people together for such things, but no one is interested.

THAT is hard work! I did it once and that was enough to convince me to hire someone younger than I! ;-)

[EXT]

Remember: "The mark of a professional is making a difficult job look so easy any rookie can do it" --- at least until the rookie tries to do it.

[MRS. CLEAN]

[RicodJour]

Cut off your nose to spite your face, eh? How's that working for you?

R

[George]

But that is just your point of view. Maybe anyone can do it after thinking about it for 5 minutes...

[krw]

Perhaps. If so, they're welcome to it. The fact is that many can do what tradesmen do. No, I wouldn't take their job but I'll certainly work for myself.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Travel time is always a questionable practice. A contractor doing work on my house for two day, two weeks, two months, is just going to work at a different location than the last job. He and his help just have to do that, same as we do on our commute to our jobs.

Service, OTOH, is a different situation. If there are three, or six, or whatever number of calls to be made, travel between jobs has to come from someplace. A 30 minute repair with a 60 minute travel is not going to be profitable, nor is the business if only three or four hours of the day are billable. I don' thave a problem with that, same as at work, if you need something from the other part of the building, you don't go off the clock while doing so.

[MRS. CLEAN]

Agreed

I'd also like to add (because Banty liked it so much) that 99% of contractotrs make it bad for the others.

Mrs. Clean > > MRS. CLEAN wrote: