Pellet stove

....

Ethanol production subsidies have no bearing on the production cost of the grain which is currently about $2/bu for feed corn--that used for ethanol production doesn't need to be that good, even.

The "massive" farm program subsidies are more used for non-production programs such as school lunch programs and food stamps.

The "study" of which you speak is both out of date in data and wrong--see

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for a more considered evaluation. Note that Pimental has consistently not considered the value of the animal feedstock co-product in order to make his conclusion in all studies I've seen.

Latest DOE studies vary from 1.3 to nearly 2, depending on the actual processes considered...

Reply to
Duane Bozarth
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Ehanol is cheaper than gasoline at today's prices...

Reply to
Duane Bozarth

I did--it's hokum.

Reply to
Duane Bozarth

That would be "citing" and saying something doesn't make it so...

Reply to
Duane Bozarth

The point is synthesized as.

"...However, direct evidence of petroleum generation from potential source rocks is lacking, ..."

and

"The abundance of bitumen nodules and residual pyrobitnmen in black shales across the Pilbara craton suggests that hydrocarbon generation from kerogenous shales was a common phenomenon during the Middle to Late Archean. The petroleum was generated from organic matter that accumulated in marine environments,..."

What is found in these environments is, iow, still organic-based.

Reply to
Duane Bozarth

Sorry. I wrote none of the follow text.

We've been burning carbon fuels for something like 1 to 1.5 million years.

All of our fuel came from the bioshpere until the adoption of coal and oil to drive the Dark Satanic Mills of the industrial revolution.

The fuel was carbon neutral, it grew, mostly within a century of when we used it, we burned it (as opposed to it decaying), its carbon returned to the carbin cycle.

....Brock.

Reply to
Solar Flare

Even if it costs $10 a gallon?

Reply to
JoeSixPack

Which Luddite said that originally?

So where did all the excess "carbin" in the atmosphere come from before we started burning petroleum?

Reply to
JoeSixPack

No, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this point. The dark seeps seen on Mars have not yet conclusively been determined to be petroleum. I incorrectly interpreted such speculation as evidence.

The occurrence of helium in natural gas deposits is actually sited as evidence for the "abiotic oil" theory.

Reply to
JoeSixPack

[major snip]

In other words... it was *not* "left over from the formation of the solar system" -- it formed from rotting plants and animal carcasses.

Reply to
Doug Miller

There *wasn't* an excess -- precisely because burning wood *is* carbon-neutral.

Reply to
Doug Miller

I'd sure like to see an explanation of that. The conventional wisdom is that helium is formed as a byproduct of the radioactive decay of uranium and certain other elements, deep within the earth's crust. We find it in natural gas deposits, not because of some particular association between helium and natural gas, but because natural gas deposits are where we happen to drill into the earth's crust.

Reply to
Doug Miller

Well, a lab experiment which shows one can possibly generate small amounts of methane is, as is noted in the article, a long way from being anything at all conclusive about the origins of large reservoirs of petroleum products.

All I have seen so far I would say is hokum wrt to being the origin of the known large commercially viable reserves.

Reply to
Duane Bozarth

Why? What is a physical basis for that as a blanket aassertion other than your personal opinion.

Reply to
Duane Bozarth

One has to wonder what all these dead animal carcasses are doing buried miles beneath the earth's surface. There must have been a huge race of groundhogs then.

If everything gets buried where the hell is all the extra dirt coming from when the continents are slowly erroding away?

Both helium and methane are light enough that they would have long ago escaped into space, had they not been trapped in the earth's crust after having been formed somewhere below that impervious layer.

Did you ever stop to do a mental calculation of how much organic life would have had to be buried perfectly below an impervious layer before decomposition broke down the body mass, to account for all the world's known petroleum deposits? And after that, how much of the body mass would have remained buried instead of decomposing into the atmosphere? It seems a lot more far-fetched to believe the biotic origin theory than the abiotic one, where those compounds forming deep in the earth and percolating upward. The chemistry has been verified experimentally to happen at pressures similar to those found only 100 kms and deeper below the surface. Use some logic and save your skepticism for the least credible theory, not the most credible one.

Reply to
Solar Flare

Sorghum, wheat, barley, many of the varieties grown in Australia are significantly less that 50cm tall at harvest, as opposed to heritage pure strains many of which stand twice (or three times) as tall. Lots of leaf, big seed heads, very little actual stalk.

....Brock.

Reply to
Brock Ulfsen

Duane Bozarth wrote:

Well, a neutral article covering the basis is

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Or for something a little more in depth: Authors: Rasmussen, Birger1 Source: Geology; Jun2005, Vol. 33 Issue 6, p497-500, 4p NAICS/Industry Codes: 4227 Petroleum and Petroleum Products Wholesalers Abstract: Petroleum generation largely occurs through the thermal decomposition of organic matter. The presence of oil-bearing fluid inclusions and pyrobitumen in Archean rocks suggests that similar processes operated us early as ca. 3.25 Ga. However, direct evidence of petroleum generation from potential source rocks is lacking, and an abiogenic origin has been proposed for some Archean carbonaceous residues. Pilbara craton ca. 3.2 Ga and ca. 2.63 Ga black shales were found to contain abundant kerogenous streaks and laminae, as well as bitumen nodules (comprising a radioactive mineral core surrounded by a carbonaceous rim) and pyrobitumen (formerly petroleum) globules, films, and aggregates. The bitumen nodules formed around detrital radioactive grains via polymerization of fluid hydrocarbons generated within the shale and represent diagnostic indicators of oil generation in ancient shales. The bitumen globules, films, and masses are preserved within anthigenic pyrite and demonstrate that a separate hydrocarbon phase had developed in the shale matrix during burial, providing compelling evidence for in situ petroleum generation and expulsion. The abundance of bitumen nodules and residual pyrobitnmen in black shales across the Pilbara craton suggests that hydrocarbon generation from kerogenous shales was a common phenomenon during the Middle to Late Archean. The petroleum was generated from organic matter that accumulated in marine environments, most probably comprising the remains of photosynthetic and chemosynthetic organisms, pointing to a sizeable biomass as early as 3.2 Ga. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR] Author Affiliations: 1School of Earth and Geographical Sciences, University of Western Australia, Crawley, WA, Australia ISSN: 0091-7613

Carbonaceous Chondrites are meteorites that have a large percentage of what is effectively crude oil in their substance, some of it in a matrix much like oil shale. Also remember that helium is all sourced from oil/gas wells.

....Brock.

Reply to
Brock Ulfsen

It doesn't. It costs about $3 to $4 per gallon, not much different than gasoline.

Reply to
Steve Spence

We've been burning carbon fuels for something like 1 to 1.5 million years.

All of our fuel came from the bioshpere until the adoption of coal and oil to drive the Dark Satanic Mills of the industrial revolution.

The fuel was carbon neutral, it grew, mostly within a century of when we used it, we burned it (as opposed to it decaying), its carbon returned to the carbin cycle.

....Brock.

Reply to
Brock Ulfsen

Reduction and combustion are complimentary processes. If you want iron, you reduce iron oxides, if you want rust, you oxegenate iron (slowly, it rusts, fast and you use it to cut your way through things (thermite ())...

Ask a metalurgist, or potter...

....Brock. (Many Russian Nuclear Vessels are now complete bombs.)

Reply to
Brock Ulfsen

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