On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 04:57:26 -0500, "Robert Green"
Cheating on ones income tax by not declaring any income is no
different than cheating on welfare. By your own differentiation then
you have absolutely no problem with "undocumented workers" not paying
their "fair share" and as a result causing your tax burden to
It's interesting how our idiot-in-chief's plan to redistribute the
wealth affects so many of those that have no clue.
Do you really expect us to believe that farm laborers, doing poorly-paid
jobs that Americans WILL NOT DO, are making enough money to pay taxes? Ask
Kurt, he tells us often that even if they had documents, at their income
level they should be getting money BACK from the Federal government. But
they don't. They pay into Social Security, workmen's comp and all sorts of
other programs that they'll never be able to utilize. It's estimated that
undocumented immigrants pay about $7 billion per year in Social Security
taxes that they will never be able to reclaim. So your point is pointless.
Even if they *had* to file, they'd get money back, not owe taxes.
Fair share? You're serious, aren't you? That's really kind of sad. I have
no problem with the "alleged" problem you're describing because it's not a
real problem, just one *you've* manufactured for political purposes.
Immigrants barely make enough money to survive, let alone pay taxes. Jeez.
Use common sense.
I pity your inability to discriminate between the two types of "illegal"
immigrants - those with a work ethic who come here to work and better their
lot and those who come here to prey on our citizens and our welfare system.
The farmworker does a job for YOU that your fellow Americans won't. You
probably eat the fruits of their underpaid labor every day. So you kick
them in the teeth after they've fed you? How's that for gratitude? It's
the Republican way. No wonder why Obama's 9 points ahead in the polls.
Ah, you know I just love when folks like you prove that Republicans resort
to insults whenever they encounter information that's not in line with
Rush's "talking points." Examining facts rather than fears, it will be easy
to see which of us is really "clueless." You make the somewhat incredible
claim that people who take the worst jobs in America at the lowest wages
possible are "tax delinquents." That's hysterically funny and one of the
reasons that the man you label an "idiot" won in 2008 and now is 9 points
ahead in the polls. People see through the horsecrap the R's are shoveling.
Let's take your alleged "cheating" problem honestly:
Aside from paying an estimated $7 billion in payroll taxes they'll never
benefit from, and working hard to put fod on your table, every time an
undocumented worker buys something, they pay sales tax. That money goes to
state and local governments. If they fill up their gas tank, they
automatically pay state and federal gasoline taxes. If they are able to
afford liquor or cigarettes, they automatically pay various local, state,
and federal excise taxes. Immigrants, legal and illegal, all buy things, and
thus pay these taxes as part of their purchase.
Local governments also collect property taxes which fund services like
schools, certain medical services, and police and fire stations. Immigrants
pay these taxes directly if they own a home, or indirectly if they rent.
The real tax burden in working class America consists largely of these
inescapable taxes that immigrants and poor people HAVE to pay every day to
So, you're "intensely" worried about people who make so little they would
likely GET MONEY BACK if, as you suggest, they filed?? I don't believe not
filing their income taxes is criminal at their level of income (plenty of US
citizens don't file, BTW). Check out what they CAN'T receive if they don't
file. They're doing us a favor by not filing:
So let's sum up:
1) You're worried that "illegals" are adding SEVEN BILLION dollars to the US
Treasury paying into Social Security, etc that they will never benefit from?
2) You're worried that they're contributing to state and local governments
in the form of sales, use and property taxes?
3) You're worried because produce is too cheap now and you want farmers to
have to pay US workers two or three times what they pay immigrants and raise
your food bill sky high?
What is it you're *really* worried about Gordon? Could it be that you're
aware that horsecrap like this anti-immigrant witch-hunting isn't likely to
carry Mitt into the Whitehouse? I'd be worried about that, too, if I were
still a Republican. Mitt can't carry his own party - how on earth do you
expect him to carry the nation?
Thanks for the opportunity to debunk yet another Rush/Republican
Here's a link for those who haven't yet realized what it means to cut off
your nose to spite your face:
<<A staggering one quarter of commercial building workers are thought to
have left the state since tight regulations were introduced . . . on
Chandler Mountain in north Alabama, tomato farmer Lana Boatwright said only
eight of the 48 Hispanic workers she needed for harvest showed up after the
law took effect . . . Farmer Chad Smith said his family farm stands to lose
up to $150,000 because there are not enough workers to pick tomatoes
spoiling in the fields.
'We will be lucky to be in business next year,' he said.>>
Keep cutting that nose. Eventually, it'll look like Michael Jackson's.
Thanks, but It doesn't matter. It's just too damn easy for some people to
blame all their problems on a group of people that can't defend themselves,
even when they personally benefit. Facts won't dissuade them. It's fun to
watch them dance around the facts, though.
Maybe paying $2 each for apples picked by American workers with full legal
status will convince those clamoring for every undocumented worker to be
deported. That's exactly what will happen if growers have to hire Americans
workers who would enjoy the full protection of US labor laws. There's an
old saying: "It takes two to tango." In this case it's the workers AND the
growers who support the status quo.
On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:44:09 -0500, "Robert Green"
In that ideal scenario my tax liability would be thousands of dollars
less per year so that $2 apple would be a bargain. Then our
imposter-in-chief could achieve what he has been striving for... for
everyone to pay their fair share!
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 20:17:28 -0500, "Robert Green"
Why not? I pay taxes on what I earn, so should everyone else.
With a flat tax they wouldn't get money back. As the idiot-in-chief
keeps preaching they too would "pay their fair share."
No shit Sherlock!
If the poor, poor undocumented workers barely make enough to survive
the can go back where they came from. But apparently with no tax
liability they are extremely happy to stay here. I think you need a
little common sense.
There is only one type of illegal immigrant -- an illegal one.
No insult -- he IS an idiot.
<rest of crap snipped>
Good point. But I don't think Gordon gets it, living way out there in space
with Alf on Planet Melmac. It turns out that the "E-verify" system has
driving much of the farm labor "underground." That means the laborers
probably don't even make minimum wage or have any other legal protections
afforded to most other US workers. Yet they still come here to work. It's
abundantly clear from what's happened in California and elsewhere that rich
growers *depend* on low-paid immigrant labor and fight tooth and claw to
preserve their access to it whenever they can. It's typical that
hatred-driven people want to throw out all the laborers that put food on
their table without a single thought as to who will do that work when they
<<Poverty defines the farmworkers' lives. Overall, three-fifths of all
farmworkers are poor, with 75 percent earning less than $10,000 annually.
The average hourly wage of farmworkers was $5.94 in 1998, with purchasing
power declining steadily each year since 1989. What's most startling is that
each income statistic is halved when applied to undocumented workers. --
Charles D. Thompson, Jr. and Melinda F. Wiggins, eds., The Human Cost of
Food: Farmworkers' Lives, Labor, and Advocacy (Austin: University of Texas
And Gordon expects people paid poverty wages that put food on his table to
have a tax liability and pay "their fair share." He doesn't realize he's
"eating" their fair share. Most earn less than $10,000 per year and
undocumented workers half that. I guess you actually have to know facts to
make informed decisions.
The real irony is that the last vestiges of the American work ethos are
embedded in these workers who come here to work and make a better life for
their families. Hundreds die each year trying to get here, just so they can
do the worst jobs we have for some of the lowest wages paid in the country.
As I recall Bush 43 proposed a system where guest worker passes
good for 3 years would be available so that those that are coming
here illegally now instead be documented and work legally.
As usual, it was all the liberals who were dead set against it,
so it never happened.
I remember vacationing in Florida at the time. I ran into two
guys that owned a restaurant in Iowa. They were complaining
about how hard it was to find English speaking help for
the kitchen and how they were using illegal Mexicans. I asked
then what they thought of Bush's guest worker program.
Their response - "That's just EXPLOITATION!". That's right
these guys, bleeding heart liberals who were using the
illegal Mexicans were calling the Bush proposal exploitation.
You have any relatives that own restaturants in Iowa, Bob?
You're not paying attention. Or you hatred has blinded you. Either way you
don't seem to understand that immigrant farm labor is the most poorly paid
work in the country. They would NOT have to file. They don't pass the
income threshold. Simple as pie.
WTF? Who ever said anything about a flat tax in this thread, or are you
just chomping at the bit to call the President an "idiot" every chance you
get? Looks like you'll have another four years of opportunity because
posters like you alienate the independents that actually elect presidents.
Keep spitting insults -- maybe you'll push Obama right over the top. You
hardliners never seem to get it. Independents do. You lost the last
election for President and you'll probably lose the next one.
You just don't understand, do you? They don't make enough money to have to
file or pay taxes. Yet they have taxes taken out of their paychecks that
unlike poor citizens that they're never get refunds for. That seems pretty
simple. You just seem hung up on hating immigrants. That's a typical
simplistic solution. Find a group that's politically weak and blame them for
ALL your problems. Where have we seen that before?
They come here because there are NO opportunities for them where they came
from and the rule of law is weak, allowing drug gangs to roam freely. And
they work. Hard. Doing jobs that DON'T GET DONE without them. "Go back
home where they came from?" Seems to me I've heard that BS line in yet
another context of hatred.
Now it's time for you to put your thinking cap on and wonder why this
problem hasn't been fixed. It's because neither side WANTS it fixed. The
Republican and Democratic growers want a steady supply of cheap labor and
the Republican and Democratic consumers want cheap food. So you're barking
at the moon. Enjoy. The moon doesn't care and neither do I. BTW, the
Federal goverment distinguishes between the criminal and non-criminal
immigrant and they're in charge of immigration, not you. Hmmm - should I
listen to a hate-spewing, insulting internet poster or experts who have
studied the problem. That's a tough one. (-"
Yeah, sure. And idiot that managed to beat the Republicans in the last
election. You only *wish* you had an "idiot" smart enough to win an
election. Instead your party pandered to the likes of Palin, someone who
couldn't even finish out her term as governor because she was so afraid of
the shady dealing the press might uncover. I understand your misery.
Go have yourself an apple and wonder who picked it for you, Gordon. It was
probably a hard-working "illegal" alien. So much for your devotion to your
cause. You'll eat the fruit of their labor and then kick them in the teeth
for providing food for you and yours. And people wonder what's wrong with
McCain lost the last election himself with the VP candidate.
Lets not pretend this is all immigrants. It is only those who enter
illegally. We have the most open doors in the world even with our
current quota system.
I never have been able to figure out why those who profess their
love for immigrants, aren't all upset because they are exploited so
easily. Alhtough that doesn't stop the more liberal to exploit them for
political reasons, too.
I would suggest that no one is in charge of immigration currently.
Thus the problems, but I digress.
Of course, the Dems lost twice to the Shrub. Never have understood
why both party's rhetoric tends toward pride at being beaten by the
Village Idiot (grin).
There are no quotes around "illegal". That is a term that is very
well defined and, as government regulations go, fairly black and white.
You'll gladly take the fruit of their labor, pay them less for it, so
you can have your aforementioned apple. Which is the greater hypocrisy?
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
He lost it to the independents, just like I said. The base certainly voted
for him. Many will still chime in about how much they loved her and will
blast the "librul" media for questioning her dealings as Governor, as if she
were magically immune from such inquiries because she was so "purdy."
I was talking about the rather rabid way some conservatives approach debate,
as in Gordon's comments about "heads up asses." It's funny to watch someone
lose their self-control and then blame their lack of control on someone
else. "The Devil made me do it" excuse, slightly recast, that seems to me
to indicate a wholesale failure to take personal responsibility. McCain and
Palin both were not known for their kind words. It seemed that every Palin
failure in the public eye was blamed on the liberal media being out to "get
her" instead of simply expose her as a candidate that made even Obama look
experienced. Funny how those "librul" media charges didn't get made when
Bush was President.
The right was just fine with the media back then. It's only when they're
losing that the blame game gets
played. You may think it was the people involved, but a lot had to do with
their attitudes. McCain's star began to fade during his "air drop" into
Washington when he arrogantly believed he was going to solve the economic
crisis which was largely solved outside of his presence. Yes, choosing
Palin was the nail in his coffin but his campaign was already falling apart
by then. She was just the icing on the cake in so many ways.
It's naive to think that laws like the one passed in Alabama are so
surgically precise that only illegals are stopped, hassled or feel
threatened by it. Let's see if a place like *ever* Alabama passes a law
that results in white males being stopped on the street and asked for
papers. Passing laws that affect illegal immigrants affects ALL immigrants.
Foreign executives with Mercedes and Honda were detained under the new law.
"Good business climate?" In a pig's eye.
Yes. I can see how "dumb furriners" could get confused by the big green
lady with the torch and the poem.
"Give me your tired, your poor (but no more Mexicans, please - we've got
your huddled masses yearning to breath free (but not in Alabama or Arizona)
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. (We really would prefer those
with advanced degrees and cash)
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, (and we'll send them right
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" (So I can better see who's foreign
looking to detain them)."
It was the same in Arizona. Anyone who looked like a "damned furriner" to
the cops could be detained and asked for papers as if this were WWII Europe.
"Your papers, please!" When you pass laws that allow the cops to stop
people based on nothing more than "looking foreign" you've crossed a line,
whether you realize it or not. Do you think Alabama would have passed a law
allowing the cops to detain anyone who had a crewcut and was white, like
Timothy McVeigh, greatest domestic terrorist in history? Of course not.
While the Feds hammer away at the legality of such "stop the foreign looking
guy" laws, Alabama residents themselves are less sanguine about the law than
they once were because they're experiencing the laws of unintended
<<A prominent Alabama state senator is leading an effort to revise the
state's controversial anti-illegal immigration law, saying "unintended
consequences" make some changes necessary. Senate majority whip Gerald Dial,
a Republican, said the changes under consideration are the result of
comments made to him and his colleagues from constituents. Among revisions
the legislators are looking at eliminating are a requirement for public
schools to ask legal status of new students, and verification of status to
apply for and renew professional and business licenses, and to renew car
Yes. Improving their lot is a cakewalk. I'll get to it as soon as I can
make the case for their right to even EXIST. Don't put the cart before the
horse. It's hard to fight for better rights for them when they're fighting
for their very right to exist.
This was all about distinguishing between aliens who come here to work hard
and do so and those that come to exploit the welfare system. Guys like
Gordon don't seem able to discriminate between the two. It's sounding a
little like you can't either although I was certain that you could.
If exploitation means giving them a chance to escape the murderous
environment in Mexico that's partly the result of our failed war on drugs,
then I'm an exploiter, I guess. If allowing them to stay and work hard
after they've shown how stupidly weak our national borders are, then I am an
exploiter. If their coming here means that they actually succeed in
building a better life for their children, I guess I am an exploiter. And
proud of it.
Hasn't anyone wondered why the TSA makes us throw out our lighters and
pocket knives at the airport when a rather large army of illegals have
"pierced" our borders and is working here, contributing to the food supply?
Because it's all political theater meant to impress the easily impressed.
And the easily fooled.
We're getting exactly the level of enforcement we're a) willing to pay for
and b) willing to accept. They wouldn't be here unless farmers and other ag
processors were willing to pay them. We both know it's the agricultural
giants that are more than happy to have a workforce they can underpay or pay
under the table. It's easy to keep an illegal in thrall. You just threaten
to deport them and they'll do whatever you want. That's pure exploitation.
I have to post this comment from someone who alleges to be a dairyworker who
responded to a story about a diary being fined for hiring illegals:
DairyWorker wrote on Nov 9, 2011 7:14 PM:
<< If you have seen the caliber of people that normally come and apply at
the farm, you would choose to hire illegals, as well! Most of the people who
want a job at the farm are addicts and felons. Who would you rather have
working for you? Someone who will come to work every day because they're
trying to provide for their family, or someone who is there to fund their
habit? Before any of you speak, you should try a farm job. Then you'll
really understand why they hired the way they did.>>
Allowing them to stay because however bad it is here, it's much better than
where they came from is far less exploitative. Tens of thousands of
Mexicans have died in the name of our drug wars, some of them with guns
supplied by the ATF. At least here they are just being financially and
socially abused, not massacred. While it may not seem much of in
improvement to us, I am sure they feel differently. (-: My grandparents
came here to escape oppression in Europe that would have likely killed them
had they stayed too long. I can easily see how some Mexican immigrants feel
the same way.
Gore got fu&ed by proxy with Clinton's roving weiner and Kerry was as
exciting as a bucket of warm spit. They deserved to lose and they did.
The reason is we've degenerated into a football game mentality about
government. I try to resist calling the leader of the free world an idiot,
Republican or Democrat. No one got to be POTUS by being stupid. As much as
I disagree with Bush's war policies, I think he was doing what he and his
advisers thought was best for the country. I believe Obama's doing the very
Back when the wars started, some pundits in the US believed that the new
European Union was going to represent a serious threat to us economically
and we acted very strongly to counter any perception they were an equal.
Arf arf. No one realized that the EU was a herd of cats, very soon to start
going off in dozen different directions.
So that means the 9/11 terrorists and the guy who picked the apple you're
eating are equal entities? Forgive me if I don't believe that. We are
given brains which we can use to discriminate differences. To me this is as
simple as the puzzle books in grade school. Which one is NOT like the
It is the one who comes here to work at dirty jobs that the economy demands
(AND FARMERS KEEP HIRING - despite the risks!!!) to make a better life for
his family - OR - the one who comes here to fly planes into our national
landmarks and kill thousands of people? One contributes to our economy,
follows a work ethic, tries to make life better for his family and is smart
enough to leave a country where the murder rate might be eight times ours.
The other is a mass-murderer. To say all illegals are equal is to have a
perilously coarse intellectual resolution that I know you don't possess. So
why profess it? That can't result in rational debate. FWIW, the State
Department has just issued new rules that essentially say "leave the working
aliens alone, go after the ones that have criminal histories." That sounds
pretty sane to me.
<<The Obama administration today announced it will no longer actively seek
to deport illegal immigrants who don't have criminal records and that it
will review all existing deportation cases involving non-criminal
immigrants on a case-by-case basis. The news follows months of intense
pressure from immigrant advocates who had urged the president to use his
administrative authority to refocus the government's limited law enforcement
resources while congressional gridlock over a comprehensive immigration
system overhaul persists.>>
Ouch. There's that "ability to discriminate" issue raising its ugly head.
I don't pay them, so the exploitation is at least removed one step from me.
(-: I DO know that they are not being killed. I know that their life here,
even working in the fields, is better than where they came from. That's
precisely WHY they come here. And stay here - voluntarily. Unlike Gordon,
I don't begrudge them their menial jobs, which are sadly commensurate with
their language and work skills. Nor do I want to send them back to the
lives of misery they came from. As for it being a "liberal" issue, ask Mitt
about his illegal alien gardeners. The richer you are, it seems, the more
likely you're going to fall into the trap of hiring illegals.
<< In an exchange with Texas Gov. Rick Perry, Romney said, "I don't think
I've ever hired an illegal in my life." We rated the claim Mostly False,
citing credible evidence, primarily from a Boston Globe investigation in
2006, that undocumented lawn care laborers from Guatemala had worked at his
home for years.>>
What I resist strongly is the urge to blame illegal aliens for everything
that's wrong with American society. The decision about who to admit to the
country is a largely (and horribly) political one. Both D & R's
administrations have erred, IMHO, in letting a very large number of Muslims
into the country, as England, France and many other nations have. Somehow,
the US immigration quota setters didn't realize that they were not going to
assimilate the way our German, Italian, Irish and other forefathers did.
We're going to end up paying a price for that as other countries are. Not a
liberal perspective, but I believe an honest one. We want assimilators, not
covert assassins. There's incredible pressure for Muslim terrorists groups
to place "sleepers" in our country making it a very difficult task to tell
who's a refugee from Iraq and who's here to commit terrorism. This time
around, we seemed to have learned something from the past and Iraqi
immigration has been far lower than it has been for other countries we've
entered into conflicts in.
I'd much rather admit an apolitical farm laborer than someone who's going to
become a political activist representing interests that probably aren't
going to be quite in line with the American work ethic. Who are all these
people who want Muslin centers near the WTC site and Sharia law courts?
People WE let in before we realized that they would not wish to blend in the
way our forefathers did.
From what I've seen, illegals that work at farm and construction jobs
assimilate to the point of invisibility because they try so hard to avoid La
Migra. Illegal immigrant farmworkers are such a little part of America's
serious problems that it's easy to see that they are simply scapegoats. I
find that distasteful no matter what society does it - and they ALL do. I
lived next to illegals for a long time. They were absolutely perfect
neighbors, unlike some citizens I've lived next to.
As you noted, this is a long standing problem with very deep roots. It's
not going to be solved easily by states passing laws that allow them to
detain anyone foreign-looking just for being foreign-looking. Expect the
Supreme Court to gut both Arizona and Alabama laws for violating a concept
known as equal protection under the law. Eventually. And no, they won't be
protecting illegal aliens, they will be protecting the Federal government's
exclusive right to decide immigration matters and protecting *legal*
immigrants from being caught up in the insanely wide net these
anti-immigrant laws cast.
If Alabama truly had all the answers, then Jefferson County wouldn't have
had to declare the biggest municipal bankruptcy in US history. That's as
blunt as an admission of failure of government as you can get. They're well
on their way to being the California of the Red States. I have little
tolerance for either state's shenanigans.
<< BIRMINGHAM, Alabama -- Jefferson County, facing $4.23 billion in debt and
running short of cash, gave up Wednesday on reaching a deal with its
creditors and immediately filed the largest government bankruptcy in U.S.
history. Late Wednesday, county attorneys filed a raft of documents, listing
nearly 200 pages of businesses and individuals to whom Jefferson County owes
money. Those pages carried the names of more than 5,000 creditors. The
largest creditor is JPMorgan Chase & Co., which owns about $1 billion of the
county's $3.14 billion debt for sewer construction.>> Source:
So, at a time when a huge Alabama county is starving for cash, Alabamans
support a measure that's going to cost them serious money to enforce in a
state that has a relatively small illegal population. It will reduce the
number of workers, the number of consumers, drive up enforcement costs and
in general hammer the economy just so Alabama can thumb their noses at the
Feds. That doesn't inspire confidence in leadership especially when they've
demonstrated that at least some of their leaders lack fiscal discipline.
Everyone who is owed money by Jefferson County is going to take it in the
wallet, hard. Bankruptcies have serious "trickle down" consequences.
It's hard to imagine an employer witholding social security tax (and
paying his share of it) but not witholding income tax. Do you have any
proof of this, or is it just a fabrication.
I've noticed that liberals rename things, with great regularity.
Lets start a list:
Love child = bastard born out of wedlock
Invest In America = raising your taxes
fiscal irresponsibility = lowering your taxes
domestic partners = living in sin, and fornicating
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
On the other hand, I hear liberals using the term
"undocumented workers", which is a poorly disguised
code word for illegal aliens, every day. Does
that upset you?
HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.