How to add GFCI to circuit with obsolete breaker box?

[iwdplz]

I want to add GFCI to a pool light circuit. I traced the circuit to a Square D XO subpanel. The XO series breaker box is obsolete and the only breakers I can find are regular used ones (no GFCI breakers for XO). It would be a huge job to replace the entire subpanel just for this circuit, because it contains a maze of other old circuits. Is there any GFCI breaker that will plug into the XO box? Is there a GFCI device that I can connect to the junction box in the pool equipment room? Maybe a simple one switch circuit breaker box that can connect through a knockout.. something that would install without turning it into a huge construction job?

[Mike rock]

You can simply add a GFI outlet in the pool equipment room somewhere on that circuit before the pool lighting, or use a blank GFI before the pool lighting like this:

Both offer the same protection. You could probably mount the box on the breaker cabinet with a knockout, or somewhere on a wall in the equipment room.

[iwdplz]

I think that would work and I may order a Leviton 8590-RBW blank GFCI. Should I place it after the light switch for the in-ground pool light, or before the switch? There are 3 other patio rooms sharing this circuit for their lights.

[John Grabowski]

*That device is switch rated so you could replace your existing switch with the GFI switch. You will need the neutral line and load in addition to the hot wires.

[Mike rock]

Ideally you want to place it downstream from the patio lights so if it does trip, the patio lights will not go out. As far as placing it before or after the switch for the pool lights, it does not matter. I was brainstorming a bit ( too early in the morning for that) and you could actually just change out your existing pool light switch to one of these:

That would give you GFI protection as well as give you an outlet. But you have to remember to wire so that the pool lights would be on the "LOAD" side of the outlet.

[Mike rock]

I should add that the GFI combo switch/outlet will only work if you have 110V coming into the switch box for your pool lights.

If you have only a switch leg ( just 2 wires in the box that are connected to the switch) then you have to use my first suggestion.

[iwdplz]

that's even better, I like that idea.

[John Grabowski]

Ideally you want to place it downstream from the patio lights so if it does trip, the patio lights will not go out. As far as placing it before or after the switch for the pool lights, it does not matter. I was brainstorming a bit ( too early in the morning for that) and you could actually just change out your existing pool light switch to one of these:

That would give you GFI protection as well as give you an outlet. But you have to remember to wire so that the pool lights would be on the "LOAD" side of the outlet.

*It has been a while since I installed a GFI combo device. I don't remember if the switched load is GFI protected or not. It doesn't say at the link.

[Mike rock]

From what I remember, the switch is just a simple switch, it has 2 tail wires on the combo device. It has nothing to do with the GFI outlet, so the OP would need to tie the neutral of the pool lights to the "LOAD"side, then tie the hot of the pool lights to one tail of the switch, then the other tail would simply go to the "LOAD" hot terminal. Again, this is only if he has the 110V feed coming into the box. If the patio lights come out of the same box, he can tie those to the "LINE" side.

[Nate Nagel]

Use a GFCI receptacle as the first device in the circuit. You may also be able to find a GFCI that fits in a single gang box that does not contain a receptacle.

nate

[iwdplz]

I made a drawing of the two existing switches (link below). With the setup shown in this drawing, how would I hook up the Leviton switch/GFCI outlet combo? One of the existing switches is for some landscape flood lights, and the other switch is for the in-ground pool light. I'd like to swap out both with GFCIs..

[RBM]

Nice drawing, however if it is accurate, you have no grounding conductors and should disconnect it and replace the wiring. The landscape wiring has the neutral cut off, so for it to work, some type of Rube Goldberg wiring must have been done. To connect the pool light to a combo GFCI switch, You connect the feed neutral to the "line" neutral on the device. Connect the pool light neutral to the "load" neutral on the device. (Under the yellow tape). Connect the pool light black to the "load" hot. Connect the feed hot to one of the black wires on the device. Connect the other black wire on the device to the "line" hot.

>

[Mike rock]

Somthing does not look right for the landscape lights, There is only 1 wire going in and 1 wire going out on a different cable with no neutral tied. Leads me to believe that the neutral comes from a different source, maybe somewhere down the line in a junction box for the landscape lights. In this case you can't use a GFI on the landscape lights because it needs a hot and neutral. Unless you can re-use that "cut" wire as the neutral, then you can use it. But lets work on the pool lights. It looks like the top middle cable is your 110V feed. So connect that to the "Line" neutral and hot side of the GFI.( leave in the black jumper going to the landscape lights) Now connect the white wire of the pool circuit to the "LOAD" neutral terminal. Take the black wire of the pool circuit and connect that to one of the black switch wires of the GFCI/combo switch. Now take the other switch wire of the GFCI combo switch and connect that to the "LOAD" hot terminal. Stupid question , but are these pool/landscape lights low voltage or

110V?

[RicodJour]

That is a nice drawing - very nice. Where did you pick up your drawing skill?

R

[iwdplz]

Indeed I was puzzled why the landscape light neutral is cut off. The cables have bare ground wires, these appear to be all connected to the junction box metal and not shown in the drawing.

[iwdplz]

I would've liked to put GFCIs on both, but it sounds like maybe I can just put a GFCI on the pool light because the landscape light neutral is cut. I'd be tempted to re-use the cut neutral but there's a possibility that this cut wire goes to nowhere. These are 110V landscape lights. Actually they are floodlight bulb receptacles overlooking the stone ground next to the pool. We almost never use them.

It's great news though, that I can use this Leviton combination device for at least the pool light.

[RBM]

That's a good thing. As Mike Rock pointed out, you won't be able to connect the landscape lights to a GFCI without an active neutral in that box. If it's possible, I would run a new cable from that box to the first landscape fixture. You will also have to find and disconnect whatever is currently being used as a neutral, or the GFCI would just trip.

[iwdplz]

Because of the location of the landscape lights where it would be difficult to install extra conduits underground, I suspect that this junction box is the only neutral/ground source (not using a neutral from some other part of the circuit). Probably the builder is using just the ground and hot wire from this pool room switch box. If my understanding of GFCI is correct, sounds like GFCI cannot be used for the landscape lights because there would be no difference between neutral and ground in this case and the GFCI neutral can never be a pure ground? I sometimes get confused on this finer distinction because ground and neutral is bonded together at the main panel.

[Nate Nagel]

it seems like someone violated code somewhere in that setup, currents must be balanced within a cable, summat ain't right

nate

[iwdplz]

In other words, I can understand that if there is a neutral re-used from another part of the circuit, the landscape light GFCI would trip because of tiny differences in the neutral when other loads are applied on the circuit. However if this part of the light circuit is using only a direct ground, wouldn't the GFCI still function ok by detecting when the "normal ground" becomes disconnected and replaced by an "improper ground" like a wet person? Because there is a fluctuation in the current in the transition between the two?