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But almost everybody can have a ground-exchange buried loop....
And, I would expect that one could get permission for closed-loop water-exchange system in many places that have rules against private wells for residential irrigation or potable use.
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Not necessarily--there are some "mine-mouth" plants, certainly, and they were built there as you noted--because that's where the coal was and they were at least reasonably well located to where power was/is needed. Utah Huntington, for one where we had online analyzer at the mine exit checking the ash content down the mountain ahead of the boiler.
TVA, otoh, has one of the most-effecient plants in the US (Bull Run) and
59 total and not a one of them is situated any where near the mine. This is the norm.Larry Caldwell wrote
Nope. I've been watching it for the best part of half a century now.
Wrong with open cut coal mines with associated power stations. Those are mostly electrically powered. Even with underground mining, the strip mining machinery is electrically powered as well. In spades with the coal washing and movement of the coal to the power station on conveyer belts etc.
The most efficient power stations are sited at the coal mine. Basically because its a lot cheaper to move the electricity over fractional MV power lines than to move the coal around.
What was clearly being discussed was ELECTRICAL POWER COSTS. No 'local jobbers' involved with those.
Not necessarily with transportation or the mining.
R. Halford wrote
Wrong. As always.
Pity about the most efficient coal mines with associated power generators which dont.
Bullshit. In spades with coal mines with associated power stations.
Fuck all, actually, most use conveyers to get the coal from the strip mining machinery to the associated power station.
Plenty of coal mines with associated power stations, f****it.
Not a f****ng clue, as always.
Dont have to when the power station is sited at the coal mine, f****it.
Yep, they use those funky things called conveyors, f****it.
Just another dinosaur operation from the days when oil was dirt cheap.
Fact.
Done like a f****ng dinner, as always.
I have over 150k miles on vw diesel. Some of the folks I work with have
300k and more. I filter to 5 microns (talcum powder is 10 micron, sand is 210) before burning the veggie oil. I check the injectors every 15k miles. I've been running veggie oil for close to 10 years. I've been wrenching on diesels for over 20 years. I have a bit more experience than you do on this subject. veggie oil and biodiesel are clean burning, environmentally friendly renewable fuels. But there seems to be a lot of folks out there who have no experience with them poopooing the idea. They forget Rudolph Diesel ran his diesel engine on peanut oil, and the petrol diesel hadn't been invented yet. You can be a very bright guy, but still be ignorant about topics outside your field. My field happens tyo be renewable fuels.
No, what was being discussed was the price of coal. You checked out of the conversation a while back.
R. Halford wrote
Fraid so.
Wrong. As always.
And even with dinosaur operations that still use oil in those areas, even someone as stupid as you should be able to work out that its a tiny part of the power station's costs, so even a doubling of the price of oil wont have much effect on the cost of the electricity, let alone double it, f****it.
Right again, I know the most efficient ones dont run on diesel engines.
Fact.
Only in f***ed dinosaur operations.
Yours qualifys.
Yep, ALL of ours are.
Pathetic, really.
And many are, f****it. ALL of ours are.
Coal aint just used in power stations, f****it.
Yes, we haul quite a bit of coal by train, but thats for export, and the cost of the fuel to haul it is a tiny part of the total costs of the coal mining export operation.
And the price of the coal they get has sweet f*ck all to do with the cost of oil, its driven by entirely different factors.
And we just happen to be the biggest coal exporter in the entire world too.
Yep. In any efficient operation, anyway.
Yep.
And the cost of the fuel in those trucks is a tiny part of the cost of the coal anyway.
Fact.
Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed pig ignorant fantasys.
I was just wondering what all this has to do with coal as a home heating option? It seems to me that in areas where wood is scarce, coal is still a viable heat source. Are there EPA approved coal burning stoves? I know the old coal technology was pretty dirty, and spread sulfur compounds all over. Is coal still viable for home heat?
R. Halford wrote
Fraid so.
Pathetic, really.
Even someone as stupid as you should be able to compare the volume of coal coming out of the mine and the volume of diesel that goes into the mine to produce that vastly greater volume of coal too.
In spades with coal trains, even someone as stupid as you should be able to compare the size of the diesel tank on the engines with the volume of coal in the train as well, if someone was actually stupid enough to lend you a seeing eye dog and a white cane.
Pathetic, really.
Fact.
Not in a single one of our efficient coal mines, f****it.
You're lying about there not being any of those there, f****it.
AGAIN, you're lying about there not being any of those there, f****it.
Wrong again. We've got enough of a clue to organise coal mining efficiently, unlike you stupid clowns that cant even manage to organise the aftermath of a hurricane effectively.
Done like a f****ng dinner, as always.
Duane Bozarth wrote
Wrong. When natural gas was very abundant, the cost of that was close to free and plenty did stupid stuff like have external gas lights for their decorative effect.
And that was seen in the 80s when oil prices were going thru the roof, and were at significantly higher real prices than currently.
Waffle. In the real world you can get dramatic hikes in the price of some forms of energy like with oil and gasoline in the early 80s with no effect what so ever on the price of other energy commoditys like natural gas or steaming coal.
More waffle.
That is completely silly. Steaming coal export contracts are never in Australian dollars, they are always in US dollars.
More silly stuff. While in theory that is correct, in practice there is f*ck all in the way of fluctuations in that.
That last is completely silly and nothing like reality.
It wont with Australian coal prices, you watch.
Very marginally, essentially because the cost of diesel is a very small part of coal production costs, even when the coal mining is entirely diesel fuelled. The transport costs in spades.
Bullshit they are. We make vast amounts of money out of our coal exports.
It doesnt happen like that with coal used to generate electricity.
More mindless pig ignorant silly stuff. It aint about stockpiles with coal used to generate electricity.
There will be no blip at all with electricity generation.
Essentially because the US is moving from the peak demands of summer thru the lower demands of fall.
If anything there is a significant dip in demand thru fall before the demand builds up again for winter.
More fool you, you clearly dont understand the seasonal demand for electricity.
It aint gunna happen, you watch.
There will only be some minor effect on some dinosaur operations that use diesel for coal mining and transport, but that is only a quite small part of the cost of coal production.
You've only got to look at the diesel involved in a coal train, comparing the amount of diesel used as fuel for the train with the vastly higher amount of coal carried by that train to see that.
I doubt they will myself. It shows all the signs of just another significant spike that wont last that long.
I personally doubt it will last as long as the main spike in the early 80s did. Mainly because even the stupidest rag head noticed the damage that spike did to their earnings.
Thats even more true today with the chinese particularly being very sensitive to the price since their economy is has nothing like the strength the first world had in the early 80s.
Particularly as much of the chinese demand isnt fueling their economy, its mostly fueling their better lifestyle currently and so is very vulnerable on price.
I doubt it, tho it will have some effect on SUV and truck sales.
Corse it will, you watch.
While there have been a lot of general comments, I don't remember any from people who have considered this problem and calculated the numbers for their specific situation and gave us the results. Surely there must be a lot of people considering alternatives. Please do.
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Unless, of course, there is an abundance of corn and no local coal, either...
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Well, you didn't make definition clear as part of the sentence.
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Wasn't clear to me...
There must be reason utilities site plants where they do???
Well "efficiency" has a pretty definite meaning to engineer when discussing a power plant, and that restriction isn't one normally used--in fact, I think this is the only time I've ever seen it used in that context in over 40 years...
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Interesting tidbit re: online coal ash analyzers and power plants--
We had only a few power plants which saw a need for online ash analyzers as opposed to a very high number of mines, prep plants, loadouts, etc.
Reason--every plant was trying to protect itself from the crappy coal the mine would try to dump on them if they weren't monitoring it continuously. Every one of these was a wholly-owned operation--the mine and power plant were both owned by the same company or holding company. The mine manager was being evaluated on production, the plant manager on his different objectives. Same boss in some cases, far different results of what would generate the most personal gain.
Some ways, mine-mouth plants have built-in inefficiencies, too....
Sometimes known as the law of unforeseen consequences
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Well, actually in the quick search I did I found a paper/presentation by EIA of precisely that period that did, in fact, show a correlation. I didn't post it as it was long enough ago as to consider it non apropos to current discussion...
So which is it - usually or always?
Great prediction - price will either go up, go down, or stay the same. Can't miss.
I lived with a heat pump for 10 years. Utterly false.
Resistance heating is there for times when it gets too cold outside for the pump to work. It does use electricity. The colder it is, the more electricity it uses. Of course, no matter what your heat source, the colder it is, the more fuel it'll use.
There's nothing particularly sacred about electricity. At times you'll use a lot, at other times you won't use much. What counts is how is the total bill over the year compared to other heat sources. During the 10 years I had a heat pump, my combined utility bill in the winter was lower than that of people I worked with. My electric bill was higher than theirs, but my electric bill generally was lower than their combined electric/gas/oil bill.
No it isn't - the price of coal, like the price of nearly everything else, is determined by the balance of supply and demand. If that price is less than mining and transportation costs (plus a profit) no one will be willing to mine and transport it to sell.
for now. if every diesel engine ran on that stuff, there wouldnt be enough used fry oil in the world to keep up with that kind of demand.
so enjoy!
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