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On 05/19/2019 09:24 PM, billj wrote:

You are a consumer. If a site incorporates google maps to display information do you think they get a free ride? I'm a developer working on several GIS products so I see the other side of the picture. Nothing is free.
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I am in fact much more than a consumer.

Or course not. The immense cost of google maps obviously has to be paid for.

So am I.

Plenty is, most obviously with OSM.
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On 05/20/2019 03:13 AM, billj wrote:

Thank you for making my point in a very circuitous manner. As I said originally many sites moved from Google maps to OSM or other solutions when Google's pricing for the API became restrictive. geocaching.com is one publicly accessible example.
Are you familiar with their licensing arrangements?
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Irrelevant to whose maps are better and who has other very useful stuff like the street view and traffic info from the cellphone bases.

Ditto.
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On Sun, 19 May 2019 20:49:16 -0600, rbowman wrote:

Hi rbowman, I have a lot of threads on OSM where my main beef with OSM is that they work reasonably well on roads, and in flat or consistent topography, but they suck like you can't believe (currently) for the kind of USA terrain that I often hike in.
It's on the net if you need me to prove it, but I found the best free maps for USA back country hiking in rough terrain are the topo maps from the USGS.
A quick search will find too many of my threads on that topic, where my main point in general, to edify users, is OSM is a GREAT IDEA, and OSM works great for roads (usually - although I use a local OSM mistake to tell instantly where the maps come from) ....
But OSM sucks like you can't believe for accurate topography, IMHO.
I must have a score of detailed threads touching this subject so I simply point you to just one thread by way of proving my credibility (which I care about). o Tutorial for saving & viewing tracks on USGS topographic maps in real time on mobile devices <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/zNKD3jyeye4/njtP-yzoAgAJ
In short, OSM is great, but they suck for USA topography where it's rough.
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On 05/20/2019 12:32 PM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:

They're better in Europe although that doesn't do me any good. For some reason Europeans seem to distrust large American companies and like to have a backup.

No, part of my job is finding places to hoover up GIS data. I haven't used topo maps much in the last 30 years although I do have them. Montana geography is pretty self explanatory.
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I forgot about google earth - I use it too.
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On Mon, 20 May 2019 12:22:16 +1000, billj wrote:

Hi Billj,
I agree that Google maps are great for... o traffic o accurate address o speaking direction accuracy (lane by lane routing) o map accuracy
However, there _are_ intelligent ways to get that map accuracy without giving away all your privacy.
For example, I have a mechanism which I've used in the past but which Google breaks from time to time, which is very similar to how I download and subscribe to YouTube videos for free without ever logging into a Google account, which is called "AddresstoGPS", which anonymously scrapes the Google Map database and then passes the _accurate_ coordinates to any offline map program you have installed on your phone.
As you're aware, I've been using the offline Google Maps for years, which is only getting better and better (mostly) over time, which also helps divorce Google from your day-to-day activities (we hope).
Similarly, as you're well aware, there are _plenty_ of offline map apps, albeit most don't do speaking directions or address lookups as well as Google Maps does (nor with active traffic reroutes).
What we can _hope_ will happen, at least for iOS users, is that Apple Maps will finally get on track, but Apple has never made a best in class non-walled-garden iOS app in their entire history (see the threads on that exact topic for proof), where we can only hope that Apple will, finally, for the first time ever, beat the best in class app on functionality. o Has Apple ever created a best-in-class iOS app that works OUTSIDE the walled garden? <https://groups.google.com/forum /#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/cx1caxsBaUc%5B1-25%5D>
Given all I care about is truthful real (not imaginary) functionality, in summary, what I'll do is open a thread on the mobile ngs to ask what steps we can make to get "google-map functionality" outside of google maps.
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On Sun, 19 May 2019 17:24:24 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

Hi Clare, Facts first; only then, can adults reasonably discuss ramifications.
I _knew_ that would be the answer (or, at least I figured it would be). o Most people own completely imaginary belief systems, and that's OK.
It's just when they _proclaim_ that, oh, for example, Apple is better at privacy than Google that things get dicey, because that means they known ONLY what Apple Marketing has told them (which is cherry picked).

I have _both_ Android & iOS, and I _know_ the difference. o With respect to privacy, there's a _huge_ difference
But privacy is like security, where the weak links prevail. o Android & iOS have the same weak links with respect to privacy
Where they differ, isn't meaningful because in the end, they're the same o In _many_ (many_ ways, Android is far more private than iOS o In some ways, iOS is far more private than Android
In the end, I can tell you two things about _anyone_ who claims one is more private than the other. 1. They're spouting completely imaginary bullshit, and, 2. They don't have a clue what they're talking about.
I "claim" I do - where _all_ my claims are tested & verified as fact: o What is the factual truth about PRIVACY differences or similarities between the Android & iOS mobile phone ecosystems? <https://groups.google.com/forum /#!topic/comp.mobile.android/FCKRA_3i9CY> > All I know is if I don't use a g-mail account, and I don't log into a

I agree with you that elimating a Google account is a good step. o Certainly it's trivial to eliminate on Android o It doesn't need to exist on iOS
What's funny about those who proclaim iOS "better" is that they don't even realize that on iOS you _can't_ eliminate the iCloud account - nor - more sinisterly - can you eliminate your Apple ID from being associated with _every_ app you download - bar none - where - on Android - you don't need _any_ id to download apps, and you can easily pass apps back and forth to _any_ phone - so in that sense, iOS is like big brother keep track of you.
To further eliminate Google, I _loved_ your suggestions (and that which echo them from rbowman) to eliminate the Google "Gmail" account, which I think I will do, using likely one of these three you suggested: o <https://protonmail.com/ free, no private information, no IP logs o <https://tutanota.com/ free, no private information, no IP logs o <https://mail.yandex.com/ free?, no private info, IP logs? <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.home.repair/V3kuohx1vf8/9zXep10TAQAJ
On the non-home-repair ngs, I'll author a thread to hone in on the best non-Google replacement for the free Gmail, based on your starting input. o Let's document the best known current free REPLACEMENTS for Google "mail" account - so all benefit from our efforts <https://groups.google.com/forum /#!topic/comp.mobile.android/YUdwh4QgoRQ>
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On Mon, 20 May 2019 02:24:19 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"

ANd I don't use either.

I'm on Blackberry

Blackberry had them all beat.

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On 05/19/2019 08:24 PM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:

I am not familiar with Apple products but with Android it is easy to sideload an APK that nothing to do with Google.
I found it interesting that Kavanaugh sided with the liberals on the Apple case. The class action suit is in a lower court but the Supremes ruled that the consumers have standing and the suit can go forward.
If nothing else it may make Apple users aware that Apple collects 30% on every app that goes through the App Store, and there is no other path. Apple also charges developers about $100 a year to put their apps in the store.
I've always been puzzled why the libs are so in love with Apple, the most regimented, single sourced company going. They love to throw 'fascist' around but I can't think of a company that is more based on my way or the highway.
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On Sun, 19 May 2019 21:03:04 -0600, rbowman wrote:

Hi rbowman, I have both iOS & Android, where the differences are astounding. o Essentially, iOS is primitive compared to Android in functionality
But this isn't the newsgroup to prove that point o Which has been proven time & again on the mobile phone ngs.
As for 'side loading', one of the _simplest_ way to add APKs without even having a Gogole Account, is to use the Aurora Store. <https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.dragons.aurora/
When I explain it, I explain it saying it's like having a kid who doesn't reallize that Dr. John Smith, wearing a lab coat & stethoscope, is the same person underneath as "Daddy", wearing slippers & pajamas.
It's Google Play, with a different GUI on top that doesn't ask for your Google ID (so you never need a Google account).
Lots of things "scrape" the Google database, like NewPipe, and AddressToGps, where it's the same underlying database - wearing a lab coat instead of the familiar pajamas.

I reported on that - but I refuse to bring politics into the picture o Supreme Court rules against Apple, allowing lawsuit targeting App Store to proceed <https://groups.google.com/forum /#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/iGKCk-rc4Xc>
I stick to facts.

You may not know this, but I have been _studying_ the typical Apple poster on Usenet, and, just as I ask at every gasoline fill "what's the difference between high and low octane fuel" of the people nearby me, the bullshit that is an imaginary belief system flies with Apple users, in particular.
It turns out that there is zero functionality on iOS, for example, that isn't already on Android - and yet - there is TONS AND TONS of functionality on a five year old Android device that's not on the most expensive of all iOS devices today.
Since I don't bullshit, I can cite those references, but there are MANY MANY MANY of them, so I'll just cite this one for reference: o Q: Is there any functional hardware on iPhones not ALREADY on Android? <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/kr6zFELHkBk/F49Q-ISoAQAJ
Notice I'm a true scientist, in that I give _all_ the known facts, including those that could dilute my case that iOS has no functionality that isn't already on Android, for example: o Christmas party: iOS has a public API to query DNS encrypted but Android does not <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/8pwhejHrm-k/AQTnOevcEwAJ
After studying the Apple users for more than a decade, I've tentatively concluded that they desperately want to _feel_ safe, without actually being safe, where they gravitate toward marketing messages that more logical people know to be pure bullshit.
For example, they literally _believe_ iOS is more private o As expected, Apple beginning to play up the imaginary privacy of iPhones (since they can't compete on performance) <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/EfMlrgxWkvQ/d6lR8F-kBAAJ
And yet, that's a completely imaginary belief system.
The reason, I posit, there are so many Apple lovers, is that Apple marketing is brilliant at creating this imaginary belief system; o What is the most brilliant marketing move Apple ever made? <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/wW-fu0jsvAU/s6gu-hj2BwAJ
In short, IMHO, after careful study, I've concluded why people love iOS o Those iOS lovers appear to own almost completely imaginary belief systems
o What are the common well-verified psychological traits of the Apple Apologists on this newsgroup? <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/18ARDsEOPzM/veU8FwAjBQAJ
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On 05/20/2019 12:31 PM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:

What I sideload are our proprietary APKs. They are not meant for the public and will not be in any store.

I've never made a study of Apple users and have never owned an Apple device other than an iShuffle my boss handed out one Christmas. I don't have anything against them but in the last 40 years nobody has wanted to pay me to develop software for Apples.
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On Mon, 20 May 2019 19:41:18 -0600, rbowman wrote:

Hi rbowman, Thanks for that clarification that you sideload your proprietary APKs.
What's nice is how _easy_ this is to do when you write your own apps. o Where I try to add value to Usenet, as you and Clare clearly do too
For example, I wrote some tutorials for _simple_ Android apps recently: o Report: My first "hello world" using Android Studio freeware on Windows worked just fine (in about an hour) <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/aW64zYeBtF0/1b5h3r3PBAAJ
And I wrote tutorials for _every_ free emulator known to work on Windows.
For example, this is just one: o Have you gotten Genymotion freeware to work on an older AMD CPU on Win10? <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/ix9empN-mxg/07ZmH2AWAQAJ And here's another: o Running Bluestacks4 Android 7.1.1 emulation freeware on Windows <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/JBRjZ39w4Ok/6Vzu7rtIAQAJ etc.

Developing software for Apple is _different_ than for Android, as you're likely well aware - where the APIs available to Android usually vastly outweigh those available to iOS in terms of functionality.
As just one example... o It's a fact iOS devices can't even graph Wi-Fi signal strength over time <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/PZuec56EWB0/rX-L9xbYAQAJ
As you can tell from that thread, I find most iOS Usenet posters own completely imaginary belief systems about the functionality available on iOS, where, surprisingly, the Apple Apologists even authored this video, against me, where they didn't even _once_ look at the Y-Axis of what they claimed iOS could do! <
https://youtu.be/7QaABa6DFIo

https://youtu.be/7QaABa6DFIo
(Classic Apple imaginary functionality)
It's kind of sad how stupid the Apple Apologistgs turned out to be o Which happens to anyone whose belief system is purely imaginary
I've _studied_ them for at least a decade o Where the simplest way to combat them is with plain old facts.
The Apple Apologists have absolutely _no_ defense to facts. o IN that manner, they are unlike normal adults (& much like Trader is)
What key trait distinguishes Apple Apologists from normal adults? <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/yyNyGsFKPlQ/F1oVb8ICBgAJ
They're basically immune to facts. o Their entire belief system is fed to them by a marketing organization (IMHO).
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On 05/20/2019 09:19 PM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:

We have several people working on Android and using Xamarin to get to iOS. Other than doing a map interface I don't get involved with it. I've done a little Android hacking around but Java isn't my forte.
I will have to say the Mac mini we bought for the build is cute. When we took it out of the box there were a bunch of programmers standing around poking at the little brick wondering what to do next. Luckily one of the QA guys had used Apple stuff before so it was familiar territory.
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On 2019-05-18 14:28, Arlen G. Holder wrote:

Is corporate mind control the new Government mind control?
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For any online ordering and personal communications I use my own mail server.
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On Sat, 18 May 2019 23:31:14 -0000 (UTC), Roger Blake

If you are using Amazon, Ebay or that type of place, they are selling your data too along with tracking you, either by IP or with tracking cookies.
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wrote:

That doesn't work here, my RSP uses CGNAT.

I don't get any of that on my facebook page after looking at stuff on ebay, amazon or aliexpress. I only get that with stuff that I search for with google, often after seeing it mentioned in a usenet post or when I have looked it up using google to make a comment about it in usenet.
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I use a foreign-based VPN service and a browser running in private mode in a VM. Addons that control scripting, cookies, and what other sites can be contacted are employed. (Multiple browsers, VPN endpoints, and VMs are in use.) That and I order very little online, preferring to do business locally in cash whenever possible.
So I'm sure "they" have some info, but it is quite limited. I see no targeted ads, practically no ads at all for that matter.
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