Geothermal heating -- worth considering?

[HeyBub]

"The facts were wrong but the narrative was correct" - Dan Rather

[HeyBub]

"The facts were wrong but the narrative was correct" - Dan Rather

[HeyBub]

I said "Agreed. I apologize for the confusion."

I didn't want to publicize it, but as an act of contrition I donated a KFC two-piece dinner to the Salvation Army.

I'm prepared to do more - it is (pretty close to) Yom Kippur after all - what would you suggest?

[trader4]

The discussion was about how attractive a geothermal system would be to a potential buyer. The relative costs of generating heat from geothermal via electric as opposed to a system using natural gas are directly relevant. If the geothermal house can be heated for $1000 a year, while using nat gas in a similar house would cost $2000, then it's an advantage. If it's the other way around, then it's a disadvantage.

The specific issue I raised is what the replacement cost of a geothermal system is. I'm very familiar with what the replacement cost of a nat gas/AC system is. I have no idea what the cost of replacing the geothermal eqpt is. I'm suggesting that it might be a good idea to find that out. If it costs 2X, then that should be factored in together with it's age when considering if it's an advantage or not.

As for natural gas and AC, I think they are remarkably cheap for what you get. I bought a 120K BTU gas furnace and 5 ton AC for $4500 two years ago.

You also get "free" A/C w/ the heat

Obviously.

[dpb]

On 9/27/2012 8:31 AM, [e-mail] wrote: ...

...

I believe that's what I just outlined above--you (or others, I forget where in the thread all the sidebars on repair costs and all was actually introduced altho it may have been earlier) brought in the other factors and I simply added some points in those areas to consider...

On operating cost alone I don't think there's any way you'll find a cheaper source long-term...natural gas or no even given the present abnormally low n-gas pricing (that isn't going to last).

--

[trader4]

That depends on your definition of inefficient. In a thermodynamic sense today's heat pumps deliver more heat output even in the single digits than an equivalent electric resistance heater, which is

100% efficient. At 32F they are probably delivering at least 2.5 X the heat of a resistance heater. The total output decreases as well, which is a potentially bigger problem.

Whatever temp that occurs at, it's apparenty not a problem in a practical sense because AC works OK at 110F in Arizona.

[George]

Possibly, but others have mentioned "a heat pump is a heat pump"...

The current thinking at least in my area is to use wells with loops of tubing dropped in them because the heat you can get from burying the tubing in soil isn't enough for a typical installation (normal size property)

I am in PA know a few savvy people who could not get natural gas and ran the numbers and put in a ground source heat pump.

[Atila Iskander]

If they have to invent "facts" to justify their narrative, then we know that the narrative was NOT "correct"

[Pete C.]

Trenched vertical coil installation is effective on even small sub acre properties. If you compare wells to old style single tube long run horizontal installations certainly those obsolete horizontal installations required a lot of space. The TVC with it's overlapping coils puts that same loop length in a much smaller physical area which has more than enough thermal capacity unless it's a very dry soil with very poor thermal conductivity.

They are a good investment in northern climates, particularly with the less expensive TVC installation method which reduced the cost differential from other options.

Here in N. TX the climate is moderate enough that an air source heat pump works well. There are few winter days when the HP has to switch to backup heating, and in the summer there aren't many days when it's hot enough to have issues.

[gregz]

It's been over 30 years, but I remember people talking how it cost them per month for refrigerated air. Hundreds of dollars. What does it cost now in the desert ? It costs me roughly $25 a month in Pittsburgh. I know the units are a lot more efficient.

Greg

[krw]

BF thinks Dan Rather is a Republican. Democrats aren't very bright.

[krw]

IKWYABWAI is about the best a loser lefty can do.

[HeyBub]

You may be right, although not for the reason you posit. There's a YouTube video of a woman saying she'll vote for Obama because he gave her a free 'phone and another where the woman arrested for shoplifting asserts "If the government gave me more money I wouldn't have to steal!"

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man There are only four things certain since Social Progress began. That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire, And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins, As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn, The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

[Han]

"HeyBub" wrote in news:ZKWdnQeSFLn5B_jNnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

Everything you said here falls by the way side after you said: "There's a YouTube video of a woman saying she'll vote for Obama because he gave her a free 'phone"

Fact is, the fre phone thing is a result of a long-standing program to help truly indigent people with communication devices and service. And this is paid for by charges on everyone's phone bill, not by any government agency, administered by a collaborative telecom company invention.

[trader4]

[e-mail]:

Oh gee, the fact that it's not a govt agency and I'm just paying via a tax on my phone for anyone that CLAIMS they can't afford a cell phone to get one for free makes me feel real good. I'm glad you pointed out that essential difference. I see those ads on TV all the time. Just like Obama's radio ads encouraging more people to apply for food stamps. You libs are really something.

[Han]

" [e-mail]" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

I'm just as concerned about freeloaders getting something for nothing as you are. But perhaps I wasn't quite clear in my post - the free phone has nothing to do with Obama, or Democrats. It is part of a long- standing program that also subsidizes rural telephones for "freeloading" farmers and out in the boonies people. Just like many people are taking advantage of lower tax rates for dividends and cap gains. It is the /system/ that allows it.

I also see and hear many ads for reverse mortgages, mortgage "relief" etc, etc. Many of those are (IMO) grand theft, but Henry Winkler and other actors are getting paid to speak the regurgitated words in the ads.

[krw]

1) If it looks like a tax, smells like a tax, is government mandated like a tax, it's a tax. Because government doesn't touch the money is irrelevant. 2) She credits Obama with giving her the phone. "Free". Reality doesn't matter. 3) People like "free" things. ...so much so that they'll stop working for them. What happens when everyone is demanding their "free" things?

[trader4]

[e-mail]:

Which party do you think would get rid of that in a minute if they could? Does it fit with conservative values or liberal ones? How did all of us survive without a cell phone a mere 20 years ago? When did a cell phone become an entitlement?

And how you can compare it to lower tax rates for capital gains is beyond me. In one case, someone put their money to work, put their money at risk to EARN income. That investment helps produce jobs. In the other case, many just sit on their asses and say, give me a phone, I'm entitled to it. And meanwhile many of them are out scamming for cash, but claiming to be dirt poor.

What exactly is grand theft about a free market program that allows a senior to use up the equity in their house over time to support themselves? Would you prefer they be forced to sell their house instead? And what the hell does any of that have to do with a govt program whereby those that CLAIM they have little income get a free cell phone and cell phone service? Did the seniors get the house for free? I'll never understand how libs minds operate.

[George]

innews: [e-mail]:

Is this a trick question? USF came into being in 1996. The house and senate held by Republicans passed (81/18 in the senate and 414/16 in the house) the telecommunications act of 1996 which was sent to and signed into law by the democrat president Clinton.

See above.

Not nearly as efficiently as we do now. I can remember the days of leaving a message on someones answering machine and getting a return call the next day.

It is to lots of people. A friend who can quote chapter and verse of everything Rush Limbagh told him thinks we should all pitch in to put a cell tower in the sparsely populated area where they live. He also thinks we should pay to extend miles of cable TV infrastructure for 3 households.

[krw]

I'm quite sure you enjoy watching the entire US self destruct, too. Obama sure is enjoying the show. I hope you have plenty of ammunition.