So the owners of Goodman, in the sample, have a greater incidence of problems. Doesn't matter who installed it, or whatever other factors. The top rated equipment is just as susceptible to other equipment failures.
Mere samplings of 36,000 people. That's significant.
Don't agree at all.
Longevity wasn't the purpose of the survey. The bottom rated may very well outlast the top rated. The survey concerned the number of problems each owner had.
That's your prerogative. As an ex-installer, you probably had a good idea of what equipment you would install in your own home, and what equipment you would avoid too.
Don't care. I'm only interested in the ones that *were* reported. Nothing more.
Not at all. Problems and longevity are two different beasts. I've had more than my share of problems with my unit, but it's 18 years old and still going strong. And NONE of them are related to the installation.
It doesn't change the fact that group 2 and group 3 had more problems. Not every system that's installed sloppily will cause a problem. The clown that put my Amana in should be shot and pissed on. Hasn't caused any problems though.
No hope understanding your inability to parse the data.
2 and 3, can you not read a simple little example? Geez, first I have to make the numbers larger, now you can't even read the data correctly! No wonder you're having problems understanding *why* the CR survey is BULLSHIT!
STATISTICALLY,
Still don't want to address the questions?
Here, I'll add a few more...
What if a manufacture was having a defect during a certain time period, but that defect was found and corrected? Does that change the outcome on the survey? Or what if the new equipment isn't the same as the equipment in the survey? Companies will often change a design that will show problems in a couple months or years down the road, what if you have one of these units? But wait, they corrected the issue... so, is their unit still trash?
How long do you want to drag this out?
The survey is a JOKE and *isn't* based on true facts. For that reason, you will *not* win this debate!
If you don't care, then why are you putting so much faith in their bullshit survey?
Try? It's all part of the overall picture that you want to overlook. How many other items are you willing to overlook, that effect the *true* FACTS?
You're making your own data up. I expect nothing less from you.
If a manufacturer was having problems, and sold a bunch of units, then there is a problem. So he corrected it. Lots of people got stuck with their shit.
Again, your speculation and bafflegab mean nothing.
As long as you keep making up nonsense.
The survey is genuine, asshole. I already told you why you don't like the results.
Learn to read, Einstein. I said I was only concerned with the manufacturers in the survey. Besides, YOU are the one who said the manufacturer was moot, and that it all came down to the installer.
You keep rambling on about the True Facts. You keep making up your own data. I gave you the FACTS. You just keep dancing around them
*You* read it, *you* made *your* statement about it, I didn't change the data... I'm sorry this confused your little brain.
You want me to hold your hand while I explain EVERYTHING to you?
Geez, how in the hell do you make it through the day?
The only nonsense that's here is being posted by yourself. At least I can read and comprehend a little survey that someone makes up for an example... LMAO
But, I told you (even if the survey wasn't bullshit), I'm not trying to sell anyone here anything. I'll install whatever brand the client requests... so how does this 'bullshit' survey effect my business?
When are you going to post something that isn't just more bullshit?
Are you ready to answer my questions yet? You keep ignoring them... I wonder why? LOL
Yep, the installer *is* the key to a system that will provide you with years of comfort and reliability.
You can't argue with FACTS, boy!
Keep making up data? Where? I made up an example to show you why your little 'survey' was complete crap. Then you couldn't even read the damn thing correctly! LOL
I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions pertaining to the outcome of the original CR survey. Why are you scared to answer them? Are you afraid that your answer will make you look worst than you already do? If that's possible. LOL
The installer I got (recommended by family) did a sloppy-assed job. My unit is
18 years old. Proper *maintenance* has been the longevity factor in my case.
Fuck you and your boy.
Your faux survey.
No, you didn't. You pulled a survey out of your ass, completely made up.
What outcome? What "outcome" do you expect? It's a survey, FFS. It speaks for itself. That you don't like it is of no consequence And I'm not "afraid" of anything, Fred.
Understand a survey: 0 Want to argue over surveys: 10
Just posting facts that you can't understand and continually want to ignore.
equipment?
You can't even understand a simple survey, yet you want to argue with its content. LOL
Yes, the CR survey *is* bullshit... I think you're starting to finally 'get it'.
What's your point? Or did you even have one?
I have posted 'why' their survey is a JOKE. I have posted 'questions' to 'why' their survey is a JOKE. You won't even answer the questions that I asked of you... because deep down in that thing above your shoulders (that you call a brain), you KNOW I'm right! Just admit it and go on. You can't win something that you don't even understand. LOL
Point? How does this pertain to the survey? How does this validate your survey?
Sorry, I'm not into f****ng little boys... I didn't know you was, sorry I brought up something that's a touchy subject for you.
It's an example, I'm sorry that you can't understand it, boy!
That you read and couldn't understand. Sorry it was so complicated. LOL Maybe I'll get a little boy to explain it to you... Ooops, that may be a mistake!
I didn't say I didn't like it, I said that it's complete BULLSHIT. Do you get that? I could careless what it says, it's just more BULLSHIT that gets published in a BULLSHIT magazine.
You must think it's some kind of bible... sorry, but the survey is BULLSHIT.
I would think that if you're into surveys so much that you could at least read and comprehend a simple example. LOL
Well kjpro, he will never get it, or give up his argument that the survey predicts equipment brand reliability. There will always be individuals who believe they know more than the service techs who work on the majority of those equipment brands, both in & not listed in that survey.
kjpro, I know that your points & questions are valid because of my direct experience in the field, he only recognizes a survey that leaves out all the requisite factors that must be included for even a somewhat valid survey. Does he have a connection with CR, or is he simply closed minded, or does he just trust statistics based on inadequate premises toward predicting equipment brand repair frequency. CR needs to be a lot more careful when they evaluate equipment based on shallow sample surveys.
In the HVAC equipment field, Factors other than the equipment brand are the major contributors toward higher levels of component failures. If there are particular component problems, each company addresses & eliminates those issues ASAP. (He will NOT accept those realities, additionally, most readers' of CR probably believe as xmodem believes.)
You can make folks believe almost anything with shallow based statistical surveys! No offense to you xmodem, believe what you want to, & buy on that survey. I would go for the best payback plus equipment qualities, proper sizing & especially a quality installation, - which might or might not be a Goodman brand. - udarrell
What it SHOULD have, though, that I haven't yet seen in this thread, is an indication of its statistical validity. Differences can occur randomly, after all, and unless one actually does the statistics, one can't discount the possibility that irrelevant random variation accounts for the "differences" supposedly shown by the results. The methodology used in the survey should also be scrutinized, or there's a danger of such factors as self-selection biasing the results. For instance, there's a famous case of a telephone survey that was done back when not everyone had a telephone -- the results were biased in favor of views held by wealthy respondents.
Without some assurance that the survey is valid, it's no better than anecdotal evidence.
Here's the text in its entirety, minus the graphics showing the ratings, which were already posted. Make of it what you may:
Furnace picks and pans
Buying a reliable furnace has largely been a roll of the dice, but help is at hand. New data from a Consumer Reports survey of more than 36,000 homeowners show that some brands of gas furnaces, the most common type by far, may be a better bet than others. Gas furnaces from Goodman, for instance, were among the more repair-prone of the 12 big brands in our 2004 Annual Questionnaire.
Overall, about one-sixth of all furnaces installed in the past eight years had needed repair. We found only minor differences between new installations and replacements. Among our other survey findings:
? Nearly 60 percent of repairs were to furnaces that had failed completely and stopped producing heat.
? Almost 40 percent of repairs involved homes left unheated for at least 24 hours.
? Almost 40 percent of repairs cost $150 or more.
According to our survey data, the vast majority of repairs involved a problem with the furnace itself, not with its installation. It?s important to choose not only a good installer but also a reliable brand.
Data are based on 36,181 central furnaces installed between 1997 and 2004; differences of less than 5 points are not meaningful. Data have been standardized to account for higher use in colder climates and differences in age; repairs to thermostats only were not counted as repairs. Note that models within a brand may vary. Our data cannot always anticipate design or manufacturing changes.
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.