Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools?

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K km).

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm (13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?

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  1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
  2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
  3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?

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I always use deep sockets, which fit over the whole nut, so I know I didn't make these marks - but what did make the marks? Are they factory original? If so, why?

Third question is related to this combination picture:

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Where this question is a combination question of: a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others? b. What's the practical difference, if any, with respect to torquing lug bolts to 85 foot pounds (115 N-m), between the two types of torque wrenches shown? c. Does anyone even use that bottom-most "auger style" ratchet bar for fast removal anymore? (I don't have power bolt-removal tools so that's why I use it.) And, the most important question, for torquing lug nuts, is d. Does the torque change depending on the length of the socket extension bar?

Fourth question is more of an observation than a question, where I combed the tires for rocks and nails, as I always do when I rotate the tires every

4K miles, when I saw this tiny little steel dot embedded in the rubber in each of the front tires.
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That tiny dot turned out to be this funny-shaped steel sliver, pointy side was pointing into the tire in both front tires.

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The question is whether these embedded rocks and splinters, of which I always find between 50 and 100 in each tire (mostly tiny pebbles and bits of glass stuck in the tiny sipes of the tire tread) would eventually fall out as the rubber wears (negating the need to periodically pick them out at each tire rotation)?

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In summary, I ask these basic questions simply to learn more about how to better rotate tires every 4K miles (6.5K km).

Reply to
ultred ragnusen
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The impact socket is superior for that application - whether using an impact driver or not. A 12 point socket is better in situations where fine motion is required.

Yes, they are there from the factory.

To make it fit in the jack bag

The Micrometer adjusting "click" is easier to use.

A "speed handle" is very handy for spinning nuts on and off after breaking them loose and before torquing. I still use mine a lot. - not just for wheel nuts,

No.

Looks like a small staple.

You are best to rotate only front to back on MOST vehicles -and MUST do so with "directional" tires.

In over 40 years Ihave NEVER done side to side rotations. (and I'm a mechanic)

Reply to
Clare Snyder

Four thousand miles? Why so often? Is that what the owner's manual recommends?

Reply to
Dean Hoffman

I knowof people that have done side to side on car with different size front and back, but it seems about useless.

I also rotate with oil changes at 7500. IMO, 4000 is a bit too soon but if you have the time and engergy . . .

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

Only use 6 point sockets on lug nuts, breaker bar or impact. They are never really that precise, they tend to have rounder corners and they are softer than most nuts. I have had to remove enough rounded off lug nuts to know that.

They are on a lot of lug nuts, right out of the box. I am not sure why.

To fit in the hole they store the tools in.

The clicker is easier to use, the bar style may actually be more accurate if the clicker was not calibrated recently.

It works but it is just one more tool. You can usually spin them off with your fingers.

No.

I am not sure what that is but strange stuff lands in the road and ends up in tires. Some times it will work itself out, other times it goes in deeper.

I only rotate tires when I replace 2.

Reply to
gfretwell

Not clear what he means by socket extension bar. If he means a socket extension that goes into the socket which a breaker bar then goes to, I agree, the answer is no. But if he means a different length breaker bar, the answer obviously is yes.

Reply to
trader_4

I will have to respectfully dissagree with you on 12 point sockets. High quality 12 point sockets are a JOY to work with - and with hand tools (ratchet and torque wrench) I have NEVER had an issue with them being too soft. I have split ONE good 12 poit (early craftsman) along with several crappy off-brands - but I have split quite a few 6 points.

You NEVER use 12 points on an impact. When it comes to 1/2 drive sockets, ALL of my 6 points are impact - all of my "hand tool" 1/2 drive sockets are 12 point and I wouldn't have it any other way. They are thinner so virtually never have clearance issues.

Usung a 13/16 socket in place of a 21mm can cause a lugnet to round (fits loose), same using a 3/4 on a 19mm. Metric sockets fit the 3/4 and 13/16 lugnuts VERY snuggly.

Seen way too many "tire installers" zip a 3/4" or 19mm nut on with a

21mm or 13/16" socket too - and THAT rounds lugnuts.

aNd then there are those tincan chrome capnuts that GM and many other manufacturers are so fond of - the cap gets hammered and loose and spins on the (undersized) (butter-soft) steel nut hidden within.

Reply to
Clare Snyder

If you are using chrome lug nuts with sharp corners a 12 point probably works fine but if you are talking about garden variety factory lug nuts that have "been around" a while, a 12 point is a lot more likely to just round them off than a 6 point. Have you ever seen a tire store using 12 point sockets on lug nuts?

Reply to
gfretwell

I don't use 12 pointes on wheel nuts either - but on juist about anything else that is not rusted I don't think twice. Again - NEVER on an impact!!!! On suspension parts, it's 6 point impact sockets.

A "flankdrive" socket drives on the FLATS, not on the tips, so doesn't round nuts or bolts. Flank-drive is a snap-on "brand" - but other companies do the same thing.

Reply to
Clare Snyder

There is no doubt that 4K miles is the correct number because the alignment is correct and the front tires get a palpable feathering on the outside edges after about 4K miles.

It's been reliable, as this is the fourth rotation of these tires, and the same thing happens every single time, where I've actually been doing it not by mileage but by the feeling of the tires - but when I write down the miles, it's just about every 4K miles.

The roads are very windy for miles at below 20 mph and very steep.

Reply to
ultred ragnusen

I don't know how to "calibrate" a torque wrench at home. Do you?

Reply to
ultred ragnusen

The impact socket has a radius at the points to remove the stress concentration that would split the socket when used with impact tools. It also contacts the nut on the strong flank and not the weak point.

A full hex is better than a 12 point for nearly all uses. You can always rotate the socket 1/4 turn on the 1/2" drive to get 12th of a turn when space to swing the bar is tight.

Reply to
Peter Hill

Why? Not all nuts have this mark, and in the UK nuts with this mark are generally used for hoses that contain inflammable gases.

Reply to
Fredxx

Lacking an actual torque wrench, be sure to use equal pressure on all the nuts. I use a two step process. First, tighten them to just snug using a cross pattern. Then go back and tighten each one as evenly as you can feel to tight, but don't kill them. Hard to decribe but you don't want to stand on the wrench to get them very tight.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

The only way I know to "test" (but not "calibrate") a torque wrench is to have a double-headed bolt contraption that is long enough for two sockets to fit face to face.

Then I would put a torque wrench on each end, and lock one in a vise and twist the other where they should both show the same torque.

That only "tests" them. I don't know how to calibrate them because both could be wrong. And you have to "adjust" them if they are.

Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?

Reply to
ultred ragnusen

That makes sense! So the rounded corners take the 'stress' off the nut and the rounded corner also takes the stress off from the potential for a hairline crack of the socket wall?

I was wondering if a 12-point is "weaker" than a 6 point? Is at 6 point stronger, weaker, or the same stress on a nut/socket as a 12 point?

I never thought of that! The math confused me so may I reiterate what I "think" you just said?

Am I correct in assuming you're saying that you can rotate a 12-point socket by 1/12th, while you can only rotate a 6-point socket by 1/6th --- but ... if you cleverly rotate /both/ the 6-point socket by 1/6th and the half-inch socket wrench end of the socket by 1/4, you get the same effect?

Reply to
ultred ragnusen

Clamp head with handle horizontal; hang bucket of water measured distance from head; add water until clicks; weight bucket; do sum.

Reply to
Robin

This is good to know that the impact socket is superior, probably for two reasons, right?

  1. It has those radius corners (someone said it reduces stress on both the nuts and the socket itself).
  2. It is stronger overall (presumably)

Since there is always a drawback, I think the drawback might be:

  1. They're "fatter" it seems, than my normal sockets
  2. They don't seem to come in 12-point sizes (at least mine aren't)
Reply to
ultred ragnusen

On a diagram, I see how hanging a known weight a known distance from the head will test the torque to see if it's correct ... but ...

And I can visualize how to mechanically clamp a bolt in a vise to hang the torque wrench on - but then - how do you calibrate the two types?

Reply to
ultred ragnusen

That's what I was wondering but I didn't know why.

Does a 12-point tend to round nuts more than a 6 point?

Why?

Is it because there's more force against the nut's point?

Reply to
ultred ragnusen

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