Bryant propane heater can't possibly be wired reversed (red LED blinks constantly)

[Stormin Mormon]

Glad you were able to check the wired reversed, and made sure of that. I've seen that problem.

- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus

.

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sat, 27 Dec 2014 19:57:05 -0500:

It's supposed to arrive on Tuesday due to the holidays. I gave up, until then. Am working on the neighbor's bridge, which blew down in the recent storms. (Pictures to follow separately.)

[trader_4]

On Saturday, December 27, 2014 7:36:49 PM UTC-5, Danny D. wrote:

My hat's off to you Danny. You really have the BMWs figured out. It was only recently that I came across the fact that the dip tube actually has two concentric tubes, the inner for the dip stick, the outer in the last foot or so for the return path of the oil from the crankcase oil separator. And that outer passage is very narrow, so it's very easy to clog. Which happens from the mayo like substance that forms from oil and water condensing after it's been routed out of the engine.

While we're on the crankcase ventilation system, here's something that I recently discovered. Almost all vehicles use a crankcase ventilation system that draws fresh air into the crankcase, while pulling combustion blowby gases through a PCV valve, to the intake to be burned. The BMW system does not pull any fresh air into the crankcase. It only pulls crankcase blowby gasses out. With the other system, you constantly have some fresh, lower humidity air coming into the crankcase, lowering the moisture there. With the BMW system, that doesn't happen. So, every time you turn the car off, there is more moisture there, which I believe helps lead to the formation of more of that mayo that clogs the crankcase ventilation system. I brought that up at one of the BMW "forums", but they promptly made every excuse, denied it was an issue, etc. I challenged them to find another manufacturer that uses such an unconventional system. The only one anyone could come up with was Audi, in at least one vehicle. And while they also use an external oil separator, it's not clear if they also don't pull any fresh air into the crankcase. The whole thing is a classic. They replaced a proven, simple, PCV type design that almost everyone else uses with a complicated abortion. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that when you have no fresh air coming in, you're going to have higher moisture in the crankcase and when you take that together with oil to an external oil separator that isn't heated, it'd going to cool, condense and form sludge. It's like these guys just started building cars yesterday.

Yes, I know they have a new dipstick tube. And aFAIK, they didn't do a recall to make it right. You only get the new one if you pay for it or the oil separator fails under warranty. Also key to that bad dipstick design is that it's what allows the hydrolock to happen. They ran that return tube from the oil separator all the way to

*below* the normal oil level in the crankcase. That's how if the oil separator fails, it can wind up sucking all the oil in the crankcase into the intake, hydrolocking the engine, or at least flooding it with oil. It's not rocket science to know that could happen and more importantly, that there is no need for oil to be returned under the level of the oil in the crankcase. They could have let it come in above the oil level. The traditional PCV type designs that everyone else use, the oil separation is done in the valve cover and the oil just trickles back with the rest of the lubricating oil.

[trader_4]

Like those guys over at the BMW forums. They are actually proud of all the failures! They come to brag about how many DISAs, expansion tanks, FSUs, etc they've changed. And if you dare to say those kinds of things shouldn't be happening in a BMW, they tell you that you're an idiot, that it's a *performance* car, that it can't be compared to a Honda. Like that explains things like the expansion tank, poor seals, blower resistor units that fail, window regulators that break on 3 doors, etc.

Like I said, from a quality standpoint, it's like Detroit in the 70s. You have to really wonder what kind of quality control system they have. Have they even heard of ISO9000? How can they not have all kind of data coming back that says they have serious problems, many of which are easy to fix, yet they keep building crap?

[trader_4]

For anyone here not familiar, on the X5 when the window regulator fails, it sends the window glass crashing down into the door, usually breaking it into a million pieces.

In decades of driving many vehicles, everything from a Fiat to MB, I've only had one other window regulator fail. That was on a MB when I took it to a car wash when it was 20F out and later went to put the window down to pay a toll. The window was frozen stuck, and it broke the regulator. The window was fine. On the BMW I've had

3 go, taking out 2 windows.

[Stormin Mormon]

Is your place cold enough to need heat? I thought California was all sunny and warm all year around?

What are you using for heat, now?

[Danny D.]

trader_4 wrote, on Sun, 28 Dec 2014 04:10:58 -0800:

Unfortunately, if you own a BMW, and if you do all your own work, you're forced to learn a LOT about the thing.

What people do to prevent the concentric-ring clogging, is drill a series of holes in the OUTER metal tube, taking care not to drill through the inner tube (which is the dipstick guide tube).

There is a redesigned dipstick tube, but that used to cost an arm and a leg (although I think it has come down in price since it was originally introduced).

Me?

What I do is unclog it every few years, when I do the CCV or when I have to track down a vacuum leak in the CCV hoses.

[Danny D.]

trader_4 wrote, on Sun, 28 Dec 2014 04:10:58 -0800:

Yeah. Did you ever try to find the EGR valve? On my M54, there isn't an EGR valve. They do that function with the dual camshaft VANOS instead. It's really crazy stuff.

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sun, 28 Dec 2014 07:54:27 -0500:

The house has three separate furnaces. Two are down, and have been down for a couple of years. We usually don't bother using them.

It rarely gets below freezing - maybe once a year or twice at most. No snow (a dusting once every five years).

We use warm blankets. Lots of them! The only problem is I'm soured on down. I bought perhaps ten down blankets over the years, mostly at Costco, and while they're soft, they tear and bunch up in the wash, so much that I'm not going to buy down ever again.

We have goose feathers all over the house.

[Danny D.]

Danny D. wrote, on Sun, 28 Dec 2014 02:41:33 +0000:

Woo hoo! Who would have thought a stainless steel rod could fail!

The moment I put the new one in, the heater worked like a charm!

The meter still read 0.0 microamps, so, I'm sure the fuse was already blown before I got it!

You guys were right all along!

[Danny D.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Mon, 29 Dec 2014 10:01:01 -0500:

We're still feeding them to fatten 'em up first!

[Danny D.]

Danny D. wrote, on Fri, 19 Dec 2014 23:56:58 +0000:

Update!

The heater certainly hasn't been turned on in a year, and maybe in two years (as last year was warm). I don't remember, but, anyway, the problem first looked like a reverse wire but the code was basically constantly blinking.

As far as I can tell, that just means whatever old code was in there has been wiped from the memory, so, it just blinked incessantly to tell us that.

Anyway, we narrowed the problem to the fact that the flame wasn't sensed, and, that meant only one of three things:

1. Bad flame sensor
2. Bad ground for the flame sensor circuit (through the flame)
3. Bad control board sensing of the flame sensor circuit.

I cleaned the flame sensor to no avail. Replacing the $20 flame sensor solved the problem!

It's amazing that a simple stainless steel rod could fail, but, it apparently did! Who knows why or how.

The way the flame sensor works is that 90VAC (nominal) is sent to the flame sensor, which is just a steel rod with a single electrical connection. When there is a flame, electrons flow from the steel rod to the chassis ground of the burners through the flame (rectifying the 90VAC to DC). The flame sensor circuit on the control board senses the 5ua of DC current, and keeps the relays on which control the propane gas flow.

The moment the 5ua of current isn't sensed, the control board shuts down the relays controlling the flame, which is what was happening. So, there was nothing wrong with the furnace, other than the flame wasn't being sensed.

With the new flame sensor, everything is working fine.

What is almost incompressible to me is HOW the flame sensor failed. It wasn't dirty. It wasn't shorted. It's just a steel rod! The ceramic wasn't visibly cracked. I just don't get it, but, it is what it is.

[Pat]

Congratulations on fixing the problem. However, from an education point of view, your statement that the flame sensor is just a hunk of stainless steel is NOT correct. Google "thermocouple" and see how they work. The current does not go through the flame. It is generated by two pieces of dissimilar metals creating a voltage which then causes a tiny current to flow and be sensed. They can and do go bad.

[Stormin Mormon]

Thanks, didn't know. Hey, hope you can get heat before you have to eat your grand kids.

So, the Bryant in question was ... uh.... the last straw? Furnaces of a feather flock together? One bad apple done spoil the whole bunch?

[Stormin Mormon]

Thanks for the follow up. Good to know you at least have "some" heat, now. I hope it's enough to keep your house comfortable. No resorting to canibalism for your family, this year.

- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus

.

[VinnyB]

On Wed, 31 Dec 2014 04:31:14 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D." wrote in

Next time buy a Honda.

[trader_4]

So, what's the logical conclusion here? That something changed in the properties of the metal? That's about all that's left, isn't it? The insulator isn't shorted, it had continuity from tip to wire, etc..... Funny thing, in the limited reading I did about flame sensors, I didn't see anything about the metal needing to be special. Only that it needed to be clean and you cleaned it up with sandpaper or steel wool, etc. I'm left wondering what the actualy failure was.

Good to hear you got it going though and good info for the future.

[Stormin Mormon]

I've forgotten that information. But still, results is what counts. I've also replaced a couple sensor rods.

Now, on to the next repair. With 500 posts, 50 Flickr pictures, and 4,000 reply posts from the list.

- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus

.

[dpb]

On 12/31/2014 6:21 AM, Pat wrote: ...

Flame sensors of this type are _not_ thermocouples and indeed the current is carried by the flame (actually ions produced by the combustion process). Thermocouples are also used, but they're entirely different.

It is correct, however, that the flame detector is quite a bit more than just a chunk of SS...

[Pat]

Thank you for the education. I was not aware of that type.