For things like pollution control, this is kind of cop-out argument. Gov't
imposes regulations and penalties on industry and the free market determinse
how those cost are paid.
But while we are on the subject o not paying one's own way...isn't it ironic
how the latest Energy Bill takes money (several billions) from consumers
(aka taxpayers) and redistributes it into the pockets of oil industry even
during this time of record breaking profit?
Clearly can't read or doesn't have the minimum faculties required for
understanding what's read.
Nice how it took all of twenty seconds to know just how useless this part of
the thread is. Now I can move on.
Only by your own choice. In the post you replied to I presented you with
and substantive arguments to refute your points. You claimed:
"You can point me to studies that "prove" your point, but I can find an
equally large number of studies that "dis-prove" the point by equally
I replied that you can't. Now put up or shut up. You're "I could if I
wanted to" blustering does not impress anyone, and your "I'd show you but
you won't listen" bluff is completely transparent.
No is not an answer to the multiple choice I presented above.
The only "liberty" you could possibly mean is freedom of profits. Anyway,
despite its grounding in the legal precedents, I do not at all buy into the
notion that corporations have constitutional or human rights.
Freedom is a great thing. But only a child does not know that freedom comes
with responsibility. If you do not have the maturity to be responsible then
it is up to the rest of society, via government regulations, to curtail your
freedoms or impose penalties for your irresponsible actions. It is that
simple, and unless you are an anarchist your argument is childish garbage.
Unless you consider paying taxes an infringment on liberty, then there are
endless examples. You can start with Social Security. If you do believe
that taxes are an enfringement on liberty then there is not likely much to
discuss. It is a fact of living in a society that you are not 100% free,
you must live in isolation if that is the kind of freedom you want. And
then you will die unless you self impose your own limits on your own
Many years after learning of the US courts granting corporations bill of
rights protections, I am still in shock that it happened and that it goes
unremarked in general.
Then I presume you will not object that I exercise my freedom to kill you
for disagreeing with me?
This is absolutely incorrect. I will offer a couple of examples as
illustration, but the point that *every* freedom comes with responsibility
is a bit too philisophical to prove. eg. You have freedom of speech, but
this comes with the responsibility not to use it to incite racial hatred.
eg. You have freedom to go where you chose but it comes with the
responsibility to not tresspass.
Then you are an anarchist? You believe there should be no laws, no police,
no environmental protections at all?
You seem to be contradicting yourself. I have sped, I have also paid the
fines. I live by rules established by others continuously. The fact that I
don't want to pay the fine is a childish reaction that I control in favour
of fulfilling my responsibilities as a driver, responsibilities that I
accepted along with my freedom to operate a motor vehicle that came with my
I don't think you realize where your lines of reasoning lead. I don't
*personally* get to set the rules for others, but by the virtue of living in
a democracy I do have some level of control on everyone else, as they do on
me. That is simply the nature of a society. When you agree to live in a
society, you agree to abide by its rules. Heck, when you agree to live with
your girlfriend you are agreeing to live by rules you mutually chose.
Absolute freedom is a rhetorical device and nothing more.
If you want absolute freedom, then it comes with the responsibility to
ensure that *nothing* you do has *any* impact on me whatsoever, or anyone
else who has not willingly granted you permission to completely disregard
Aside from my belief that you are wrong, your manner marks you as useless.
Note how I say _you_ and not some fantasy group that I chose to lump you in
Aside : When you get off the left-right axis mode of thought you may make
some progress in the world.
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