Zinsser Sanding Sealer vs. Shellac

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Does anyone know the relative pound-cut of the standard shellac? I've found that the sealer is a 2lb. cut on their website. When spraying the standard shellac I've had to thin it some, so I was thinking of just buying the sealer and using that. But then I thought again and figured I could just buy a gallon of the regular shellac and a gallon of denatured alcohol and cut it myself and save a few bucks. Any thoughts? Concerns? I'm just looking for a little affirmation here folks!
JP
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Jay Pique wrote:

3 pound cut is what you get out of the can for the standard, althouugh I've seen 4 and 5 pound cut at paint stores, and the sanding sealer, out of the can should be a 2 pound cut.
The sealer is dewaxed and works well when sprayed and can indeed be used as the finish coat. I often used the amber 3 pound cut, thinned to a 1 1/2 pound cut with isopropyl alcohol (depending upon the temp/humidity) prayed on for the final coat.
There are quit a few threads on this in years past if you google.
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Thanks much.

DAGS!!! I got lazy....sorry. I'm just finishing up a countertop that absolutely positively needs to be done before Thanksgiving so that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it!
JP
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Jay Pique wrote:

No problem ... it was just that there is much more in depth info available in some of those threads than in this one. :)
If you are not planning on using anything but shellac, buy the three pound cut and thin it down to 1 1/2 with alcohol (I prefer to use that cut when spraying, but YMMV).
You really don't need the dewaxed, if that is all you're using ... the dewaxed being essential for compatibility with lacquer, poly and other top coat finishes added post shellac application.
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On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:17:40 -0600, Swingman wrote:

The dewaxed also resists moisture and water rings much better.
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Larry Blanchard wrote:

After running some tests I my own a few years ago I strongly agree.
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On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:52:31 -0800 (PST), the infamous Jay Pique

Sprayed shellac or lacquer are pretty much your only hope, then. Anything else would reek up the place for a month.
-- We have too many high sounding words, and too few actions that correspond with them. -- Abigail Adams, letter to John Adams, 1774
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On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 08:13:52 -0600, the infamous Swingman

That very last line is awfully Freudian, Swingy.
-- We have too many high sounding words, and too few actions that correspond with them. -- Abigail Adams, letter to John Adams, 1774
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On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:43:33 -0800 (PST), the infamous Jay Pique

I'd want to find out the exact solvent they used before trying to dilute the canned crap to ward off any strange reactions. YMMV (Yeah, I know. "Alcohol is alcohol", but...
Why aren't you mixing your own from flake, Jay? It's cheaper, ou can control the exact color by the flake, and you can make it quicker or slower to dry via the solvent (DNA for quicker, ISO for slower.)
Besides, it's plumb funner!
http://www.shellacshack.com/purchase-shellac-flakes.html These ain't Paddylac prices <sigh>, but they're better than the price from the old Paddylac site. I sure wish O'Deen had kept that. They want more than quadruple the price he got. www.shellac.net Used to be Paddy's.
-- We have too many high sounding words, and too few actions that correspond with them. -- Abigail Adams, letter to John Adams, 1774
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wrote:

Just buy it and go. Shellac is a finish that doesn't desegregate, so you cannot thin it to much. It might make you have to put more coats or possibly affect your finish a bit, but it is almost impossible to ruin shellac when thinning.
And since it resolvates, you don't have to worry about any attempts to repair. You can repair or touch up to your hearts content.

Actually, alcohol isn't alcohol. When using alcohol to think shellac, you should only use anhydrous alcohol. It mixes better, sprays better, gives a better final product and keeps application problems to a minimum.
Any premium brand anhydrous alcohol can be used successfully to thin the Zinsser product lines of shellac. I have been using the Sherwin Williams brand for years with no problems at all.
Spend the money; get the right stuff.
While YMMV, I usually cut the Zinsser sanding sealer by about 30- 50% ( !!! ) and spray it rapidly when redoing kitchens or baths, or on new cabinets. This does two things; it sprays out like water so if you are experienced you can lay that stuff out fast and accurately. If you do get a run or sag, it is easy to sand off because it dries so fast.
The second thing is that >because< it dries so fast, it cuts down the opportunity of finish contamination by airborne "stuff" that is always in the air on the job site. Less nibs, less cleanup or sanding = less time finishing.
If my surfaces are new cabinets, I check to see if the SS raised the grain or made the surface rough (from not enough sealer). If they are smooth I will spray a lacquer or conversion lacquer over the sanding sealer without sanding after about 4 hours.
Depending on your project, you could prime, touch sand, and apply two or three finish coats all in a day using the right combination of prep and finish.
Robert
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wrote: [snipped for brevity]

The beauty with conversion lacquers is that successive coats, if done in a reasonable timeframe, really become one coat. I mean that stuff sticks to itself beautifully and is that is also my biggest beef about WB stuff... although I have been getting some pretty nice results with clear MinWax acrylic. That stuff dries pretty hard so I get a nice cut from a fresh piece of sandpaper. I am currently working (as we speak) on a rather interesting project where I made bamboo door trim for a vanity on my cnc, out of cherry, just so I can SS the stuff, them paint semi-gloss black, just so I can knock it off the high-lights... then clear coat only the bamboo....*damned interior decorators...LOL* Oh.. and that little 35" vanity is getting a Passion Rouge quartz top (pette) with a screaming white porcelain undermount bowl.
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Robatoy wrote:

What brand of conversion lacquer are you guys using?
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I really, really like the stuff from these guys:
http://www.kwickkleen.com/catalog
Scroll down to their "finishes and sealers" button on the left hand side.
They will send you a free catalogue, and if you have a business phone number showing you are in "the business", they will send you a free quart.
It is without doubt the finest pre-cat poly conversion lacquer I have ever used. And the final finish when hardened and cured will rival most air cured post-cat lacquers.
Plus.... if you hit a wall, you can talk to Dave, the owner and proprietor who tests and is in charge of mixing and designing all the finishing products he sells.
When I had a lot of refinishing of entry doors to do at a local golf course/country club, I decided to try their stripper, and bought a five. Their stuff makes Klean Strip and its cousins look like water. I brushed my arm against some of their stripper that was on a door frame and it raised white blisters in about 10 minutes. Good stuff!
Note too, they sell a very good professional quality metal lacquer in a spray can that is quite good for all metals, but really great for brass door hardware, hinges, knockers, mail slots, etc.
Robert
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wrote:

Hehehehe..you're mad man! Love it!
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Cool, thanks... but which stuff are you talking about exactly? They have five pages of goodies in "finishes and sealers" section.
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than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
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At the bottom of the first page, it is listed as "Exterior Fast Dry Polyurethane GA" (Spray forumla). I have used gloss and satin. Don't know if this will work due to the wrap:
http://kwickkleen.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=108&products_id=1400
or
http://tinyurl.com/y9635lf
I have also used the second one down on page two, the " Kwick Kote High Solids- GA " for a high build finish. This stuff is sex. Check it out.... 30% solids!
You MUST buff/cut it down though as it will be too thick otherwise.
I have probably shot a fifty+ gallons or so of that first selection and love it. I always spray it, and it is everything they say it is and more. I recoat in 30 minutes, and on exterior doors I can build 5 coats in a day with no problems.
It thins well, and a the wildman that I know in Phoenix (that actually introduced me to this stuff a few years ago) cuts it by 50 - 75% with no finish failures. I personally have never cut by more than 50%. But it shows you how forgiving the product can be.
I have shot this with a CAS HVLP as well as my Fuji HVLP. No problems with either. Just make sure you thin with good, paint store lacquer like Sherwin Williams of BM, or others. NO Home Depot crap. They are good for gun wash, and not much else.
Note they sell this as a quick dry polyurethane. But when you read the info, you can see that they claim that the subsequent coats will melt into the first. They do! No witness lines on those next coats. And unlike actual polyurethane, this stuff is repairable. In practice, I cannot tell this stuff from lacquer when I spray it. But the cured finish is quite hard, very abrasion resistant, and if the exterior blend it has great UV resistance as well.
While I have not tried it, they are supposed to make a really kick ass plain lacquer as well.
I hope you try it and let us know what you think.
Robert
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On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:20:59 -0800 (PST), the infamous
following:

The Waterlox Original I use has more like 20% solids, their Marine has 26% solids, but their Oil Modified Urethane Satin goes up to 46% solids. So there! ;) (No, I'm not saying that you should use anyone's urinestain.)

That's _always_ nice, isn't it? Do you have a turntable for spraying doors or do you do them vertically?

75% thinning? That's truly amazing!

There's a difference in lacquer thinners? I've never shot finish and generally just use lacquer thinner for cleaning prior to finishing.

Yeah, they call it "maintainable", which is very, very unusual for poly.
-- It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare; it is because we do not dare that they are difficult. -- Seneca
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Sounds great Robert, and you answered all the other questions I'd been pondering but had yet to ask. I will try it and let you know (not sure *when*, exactly...). Thanks.
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than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
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Steve Turner wrote:

Ah, well I did think of one more thing. I wonder if you have any idea how well this product holds up to the long term effects of being in contact with the oils and sweat of human skin, for example, on a computer desktop or the arms of a chair? I've stopped using regular nitrocellulose lacquer for things like this because it doesn't hold up well at all; it breaks down and gets gummy, and you can scrape right it off with your fingernail. Do you happen to know if this product will stand up to that kind of abuse?
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(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
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I have used this stuff for anything my clients would let me put it on. I have refinished table tops, exterior doors, counters in a bathroom, you name it.
In each application, NO problems. It is abrasion resistant, UV resistant and protects the wood quite well. Applied correctly and to the right thickness (finished thickness not less than 3 mil) it should work great.
I put it on the front door of the Fair Oaks Country Club as well as the entry access doors to the members areas and dressing rooms about five years ago.
In five years of use, the doors look great. I hit them pretty hard on the price of refinishing the doors as I had to strip off a few layers of varnish, poly, and who knows what to get to bare wood. The finish is holding up so well though that they are wanting me to do more when the budget permits.
Take away all the oily, sticky hands from folks that range from sweaty guys coming in from playing tennis and golf. Take away the fact that on one set of these doors the folks (non latching double doors) prefer to bang into the doors with their butts instead of pushint them open using the brass push plate. (They don't spill their cocktails.)
That's not the worst of it. The maintenance people have done everything wrong you can do to clean the grime off these doors. I went out there about two years after I had finished their doors as I was angling to refinish their large conference table. I found that the cleaning maintenance guys were cleaning the doors with 409 every day, allowing window cleaner to drip onto the door as they cleaned the windows, and worse, when finished they applied a hefty coat of lemon oil.
I was stunned. I had given them a list of things to do to clean them as well as accepted cleaners. My number was on the list to call if none of the stuff I recommended worked. After consulting Dave at Kwickkleen, I issued a letter reascending my warranty.
What's so bad about lemon oil? There are many different versions, but all of them should be used as mosquito repellent, and that's it. Some have lemon oil in them, some do not. Real lemon oil has a high level of acidity, but it probably wouldn't hurt a poly finish if it was only used once in a while. But the bad part of it is that "lemon oil" is actually mineral oil that is scented or has a little of lemon oil in it, or both.
Mineral oil is a petroleum product. Petroleum products destroy any wood finish I know of. I have even seen leaking oil from a small appliance eat through "bar top" finish.
However, the good news is that neither cleaner or oils did any harm to the Kwickleen stuff even after being applied daily. The WD40 they sprayed on the hinges and locks didn't seem to phase it either. That really sold me!
The last time I saw the breakfast table top I put it on (finished it in the client's garage with my Fuji HVLP) it looked great. The folks eat there all the time, never at the dining room table, so it gets all the wear and tear of eating plus cleaning after. For that top, the finish mil was about 5, which was achieved with about 10 coats over two days of time.
<<Generally>> speaking, I thin that stuff about 10 - 30% depending on temp and humidity. When I was refinishing entryway doors, I was able to strip, wash and apply 5 coats of finish in a day and rehang the door.
A word of caution on this stuff. I tried brushing this stuff, and I might as well have glued the brush to the wood. It goes off FAST. I am fine brushing finishes that have long layout times like latex, poly, or oil based stuff. But you can count the seconds you have to get it right when you brush or pad this stuff. Their regular (non spray formula - which I have sprayed!) may be different.
I am ONLY speaking of the spray formula. This isn't a problem for me as almost all high performance finishes are made to be sprayed, some spray only, these days.

Yeah, me too. There are too many other finishes out there that leave it in the dust. I have no romance of connecting to the old ways of finishing, ESPECIALLY if it comes as a compromise in performance. Not one bit. One warranty call on my finish, and if it is the fault of the finish I won't use it again.
I still shoot some Old Masters lacquer in occasion. Some folks don't want to pay a few buck more for the good stuff, and that is certainly their prerogative. The OM product isn't hard to find (I buy mine at Benjamin Moore) and is easy to shoot and easy to build. It finishes nicely and give good performance. No warranty from me though, except against peeling.
Robert
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