This one doesn't appear to
Nasty kickback risk on this one, even with that riving knife.
although the worst hazard is clearly the terrible electrical fault - look at what it's done to his hair !
This should have a push board to feed the board through - can't see if there is one.
Tue, Dec 21, 2004, 5:11am (EST-3) snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com says: Happened upon this school website
I suspect none of the machines were turned on when the pictures were taken.
JOAT Sanity is vastly over-rated.
Or... is his finger bent - like the second finger is?
Now that one is... shall we say... novel. Not a horrible safety risk since it's just a vibrating sander, but I can't imagine how wobbly that must have been.
No, and no. I prefer the safety and control of my hands on a piece of wood than the instability of a push stick used for the wrong task. Yes, I have all of my fingers and I've been woodworking for over 35 years. Maybe you have also, and I don't suggest you abandon procedures that make you comfortable, but the level of pure asinine safety talk here is absurd. Most of it is nothing more than people repeating things they've heard or read and it becomes mantra, rather than being based on anything substantial. There are too many people here who do nothing more than look for what they can point out as a safety issue, just for the sake of passing wind.
As to the photos, neither you nor I know what number 44 is shaping. He has a solid hold on his stock and that mitigates more potential problems than anything you're going to do with a push stick. If he's just doing edge work on that shaper his hands are perfectly safe where they are. What are you seeing that is such a concern?
The young lady, likewise has a good hold on her stock and her hands are well clear of the cutter. She has control. What are you seeing wrong with her picture?
appears the operation is a simple roundover, the stock is sufficiently large that his hand is not near the roundover bit as it moves the stock, what is your concern?
Router bit in fence -- seems OK. It's a short piece that she is working, use of a push stick would appear to me to be more dangerous than the operation as she is performing it. If something grabs, she is out the the way of any kickback, there is noone behind her. Her fingers are again well clear of the bit, her eyes and attention appear to be firmly on the work. I would probably have clamped a guard board over the exposed portion of the bit at board height. A push block, particularly with an edged surface would have the potential for tipping the workpiece.
Some were - you can see the wood chips flying.
It's a borderline cut. You'd do it, I'd probably do it. It's also a poor photo angle and the real situation might have been much better or much worse than we know.
These are kids though. _Not_ the best and most skilled workers. Don't make it any harder for them.
There's also the far more important point that this isn't a workshop, it's an instructional workshop. You don't just do what's needed, you do what you _ought_ to do, for any forseeable variation on that operation. You're not trying to make stuff here, you're primarily trying to teach good techniques andd good habits for the future. I often use my saw (cabinet or bandsaw) without earmuffs, because they're both quiet machines. But if there are kids around I _always_ wear them, because as a general rule "cabinet saws are noisy and you wear earmuffs".
A workshop like this has crosscut sleds to hand, and you use them whenever you _can_, not whenever you _must_.
So would I. But I said push _board_, not push stick. A piece of scrap board of appropriate width and thinner than the workpiece. For a single drum sander you really do need one, and even for a machine like a thickness planer it's a good idea to have one handy, in case the powered feed roller stalls or slips. These things do happen from time to time, and prior preparation removes the slightest incentive to stick your fingers somewhere unholy.
The first machine is probably illegal to operate in the UK in a commercial workshop and is _certainly_ so in a school workshop.
In fact the first one just isn't something _I'd_ do. That's the most common table-mounted router accident requiring a hospital visit (according to the HSE's figures) - a blind emerging cut, where the pushing hand goes straight into the unseen cutter.
The second picture is one I'd cheerfully do, but I'd never let kids do it. _I_ have some idea of where my fingers are, where the bit is, and how far to separate them. Kids can't reliably do that.
I personally don't see a problem in any of these pics. At least the operator appears to be concentrating on the task at hand. In fact, the only time i ever use a push stick is for ripping narrow pieces with a TS. I would rather guide things with my hands if possible, but i run WW machinery for a living, and am comfortable with that. I DO pay careful attention to where my fingers are in relation to the danger areas.BTW, I still have all my fingers attached and intact! --dave
A blind emerging cut 1/4" high with a 3 1/2" high workpiece is considered hazardous? Just how would one make such a roundover in the UK? Surely a hand-held router would be considered even more dangerous (free-spinning unguarded bit along with chance for router kickback if the person forgets the proper feed direction -- see your comment below regarding kids).
I think you are underestimating young teens. I know that when my dad taught me how to use power tools, the single most important comment he made was, "that blade doesn't know the difference between your finger and a piece of wood -- know where it is at all times. Seeing how that girl's concentration as she is making the cut, it appears she has been similarly admonished.
I guess he had that finger reattached for this picture
Geeze Andy - did you see the work they produced? These guys aren't the untrained, unskilled, off the street kids. Their work practices make it clear that they know what they're doing.
You can take this to the point of looking for problems that don't exist. Not everything done in the name of safety is really safer. A good example is using a push stick as has been suggested by more than one poster. The operations in question were in fact being performed much safer by hand.
I think you need to look at the site completely Andy. They're making things. Nice things. This is not first semister wood shop.
Wrong. Badly wrong. You use tools, adjuncts, and procedures when they are appropriate, not just for the sake of proving something. This is the perfect example of taking it too far.
Again Andy - take a look at the picture. The stock is not even fully on the bed yet. A push block or any other device that lessens the control that the operator's hands exert over the work piece would be flat out wrong. Dangerous. It isn't about contriving safety rules, it's about smart, common sense, practical procedures. Procedures that will ensure against accidents, not invite them.
Through 3" of wood? I think not.
I have to respectfully disagree Andy. My own kids are proof of that and I've had a few other kids that were either neighborhood kids or the kids of friends, who over the years I've taught a bit of wood working to, or have for one reason or another, have done wood working in my garage. I assure you - not all and even *most* kids that are interested in this stuff are not the absent minded air heads you typically find in the shopping malls. There's a world of bright, attentive kids out there. If you haven't crossed paths with them, then that's truly a shame, because it does your heart good to work with them. They can indeed reliably function in a wood working shop.
I've read more stuff here that concerns me than what I've seen and experienced with the attentiveness and capability of the kids I've worked with.
The problem isn't when the person has control of their stock, it's what happens to their body if they lose control of their stock. Kickback has happened to all of us at one time or another, and the girl trying to control that short piece is asking for an accident.
A push block like ones used in a jointer would make that operation much more safe, IMO.
I can't see how big the workpiece is from that picture. Maybe it's not really that hazardous.
It's certainly _considered_ hazardous - the HSE are having a real thing about emerging cuts. Looking at the actual stats for hand injuries, they seem to have a point. We might all just be careless drunks working with our eyes shut, but that's when the injuries are happening.
Same way as in the picture - but not feeding it with your fingers.
For a commercial workshop there's a strong pressure to fit tunnel guards for this find of work
To be honest, you're going to find no (UK) school workshops and very few colleges with spindle moulders.
Depends on circumstances. There's a good working principle in PUWER which says that works should be done on the least-risk machine - which means the fixed vertical spindle, if you have one. However spindle moulders have a bad reputation in the UK and many people avoid having one altogether - leaving them with the free router.
I'm probably underestimating that one, but deliberately so. You have to plan around the worst behaved and least attentive of the group. This is also the one most likely to whine "But _Siirr_, you let Sammy Maloof use the bandsaw!"
If you can filter the group, perhaps a woodworking club, then you can achieve a lot more. Your best pupils are still the same, but you don't have to account for the less able or committed to the same extent.
Wasn't even looking - that's not the point.
They're inexperienced. They're schoolkids - they can't be anything _but_ (they just haven't had the time).
One of the smartest comments I ever heard at school was from my metalwork teacher. He pointed out that metalwork as a school subject was basically pointless. Very few of us would ever handle a hacksaw again. Of the few that went on to engineering apprentices, or whatever, they'd be working 40 hour weeks. The couple of hours a week we'd spent in the workshop during all our years at school would be outweighed in no time at all. He was right.
They are indeed making nice things. That's rewarding, and good on them for doing it -- but it's still _incidental_ to a vocational course, because that has to focus on what you learn to make afterwards. Of course the best way to encourage this can be through the reward of present achievements, but you still have to
To be honest, a non-vocational course doesn't need to teach you much beyond the fact it's _possible_ to make stuff. You can pick the rest up later. Sadly the current UK system ignores this completely and we're spawning a generation of mall-rats fit for nothing other than entirely passive consumption. Things are made in factories full of robots and you get them by going to a shop -- the idea that you could _make_ something yourself just doesn't occur any more 8-(
So what's wrong with using a sled ?
This is an entirely appropriate cut to do on a sled. Doing it against the fence like this is borderline for being in the proportions where it becomes hazardous (neither of us can really tell from that picture).
Of course - but a block doesn't (a stick would).
I'm assuming that the "bed" here is actually a powered feed belt. If it isn't, or if that belt slips, then you have the workpiece coming back towards you. You need to control that, and you can't control it with your fingers for the last part of the pass (at least not without getting your fingers too close to the drum).
Suppose that the block the girl is routing does get kicked back. What do you believe is going to happen to her that a push block would prevent?
However I think you grossly overestimate the potential for kickback from a router table.
I don't know if she's safe or not, but I'm a devout coward... I use a slide jig that holds the work against the fence and makes it really, really hard to get my fingers in the way..
The only thing that made me wince was seeing all those kids running banshees (routahs) with no hearing protection.
That statement ignores the degree of accomplishment these kids have achieved. It presumes they are absolute beginners. If they were, you would have a more valid point, to a degree, but since they clearly are not, your point loses all of its validity.
You don't need years of time under your belt to have developed the necessary understandings and appreciations of certain things. I think I'm hearing some eliteist stuff coming through. I find that hard to believe based on a lot of other postings I've read from you, but I can't figure out what else it would be.
I'd agree with that but what does it have to do with the discussion at hand? Most of us do a number of things on a very part time or occassional basis. That does not prevent us from doing them with all of the appropriate safety. Nor does it imply that we need to go overboard trying to implement every conceivable measure that might be considered a safety consideration in spite of perfectly acceptable procedures.
Our discussion was not about whether they are pursuing a vocational education.
Nothing. It's a great adjunct - in its place. It's just not necessary to use it all of the time. There are a ton of cuts on the table saw that do not require or even benefit from the use of it. To state that a perfectly safe cut on a saw without one is unsafe just because they didn't use one is wrong and that's what I commented on.
Wrong. There is plenty of support along the fence. It only requires a glance to see that. This is not a small piece of wood he's trimming. It's a matter of stability against the fence. He was only trimming an inch or so off of a piece of wood that approached a foot in length. Please explain how that proportion is boarderline to becoming hazardous. That's the problem with blanket statements like one commonly finds here at the wreck - they become mantras and ignore the fundamental principles. The cut he was doing is one which a table saw does well and poses no problems to the operator. The fellow in the picture was far from reaching any point of wood protruding beyond the blade to be of concern.
It sure as hell would when the wood is still not fully on the bed.
Andy - you're looking too hard for things to find wrong. Again, look at the picture. He is providing the highest possible degree of control over his workpiece. That's what it's about - it's not about gadgets and things. He is not at the end of the push, he's at the beginning.
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