Wow, safety NOT first

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Well, this is this century Sandman. What existed 100 years ago is hardly relevant to the conversation at hand. Everything being discussed is being discussed in the context of today, not 100 years ago. This was after all, a modern day shop class we saw the pictures of.
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subject
hacksaw
in
thoughts.
a
Argh!!! Make that *Swingman*. Sorry about that.
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"Mike Marlow" wrote in message

Where in the hell did 100 years ago come from?
You were disagreeing with what Andy said about an instructor of his when he was in school, in a different time and place of which you have no knowledge. That _was_ the "context" and you just didn't snap to the change ... and just how old do you think he is?
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hardly
being
all,
My bad Swingman - I was responding to the "another century" from your previous post. It's not likely that such a term would be meant to express what existed in 1999. It's more likely that such a comment would express what existed a long time back in the past century, which by itself was reflective of older conventions.

he
knowledge.
just
No, neither Duane nor I disagreed with what he said about an instructor of his, we disagreed with what the instructor said as being applicable to the wood shop site we all viewed on the internet, and the propriety of kids working that sort of work. There's a big difference there. It does not matter what the instructor said 40 or 50 or 80 years ago, it's not today. It's not relevant to what was being discussed and it's not relevant to the school under discussion.
How old do I think Andy is? I really don't know. I often get surprised when I see pics of folks and find that they are either younger or older than I had imagined. I simply take Andy as I see him - a pretty well thought out contributor who seems to have a pretty broad base of experiences he speaks from. Like everyone else here, he's not always dead right with everything but also like a lot of folks here, he often has some good stuff to add to the mix.
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"Mike Marlow" wrote in message

Yes, there is a big difference ... unfortunately, and as I have said repeatedly, it appears you missed the point, as well as the context, of Andy's reply to your post. You need to go back and read it in it's entirety with an open, instead of argumentative, mind.
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"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

For which country was he "totally wrong"?
I doubt seriously that you have experienced a strong apprenticeship program in this country, or the class distinction that still existed into the middle of the last century, unless you were born early in that century.
Having lived and worked a factory job in the UK, where Andy is, some 40 years ago, when the apprentice system was still strong and class distinction subtle, but present, I'd say Andy precisely described what my take would have been at the time.
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Swingman wrote: ...

Well, it may have been a common opinion of the time although I don't think I would have agreed even then, but, I'll grant I'm not a Brit so have strange upstart ideas of "place"... :)
What's wrong w/ <any> person, of any perceived class having an acquaintanceship of/with <any> particular field of occuption/study? Just because they may (a) be retrained in further depth, or (b), not use it for a profession doesn't make it "wrong" in my book...(a) may be a less-than-optimum useage of time for those who do, indeed follow on, but I'm not even positive of that--repetition is of benefit, too. And, we are at least, I assume, talking of a present attitude...
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"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

IMO, that assumption was what you got off the track ... for the time and place that Andy was speaking of, I would say not.
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Swingman wrote:

But what I was responding to was that his post reflected that is still his attitude...
If not, then I <did> misread the post.
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"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

First you must imagine a workplace attitude and culture where "tools of the trade" are not to be used by anyone who has not gone through the appropriate apprenticeship, and you can then begin to understand why the instructor's comments may not have been "totally wrong, as you stated.
My first job with a cabinet maker in England in the early 60's, I was forbidden to use anything but the claw end of a hammer. It was a couple of months before I convinced him that I could use a handsaw accurately and to good effect. He _very_ grudgingly allowed that due to being short on apprentices far enough along to get that particular job done.
My second job was in an aircraft factory where I was on "staff", wore a coat and tie, had tea served to me on a table with a table cloth, all right next to coverall attired "floor" workers, who had to fetch their own tea, sip it on a bare table adjacent to mine ... and made twice the money I did.
Different "classes" of workers back in those days ... and woe betide me if I had attempted to pick up a hacksaw out on the factory floor.
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Swingman wrote:

...
...snip...
Oh, I understand the background (jest becuz i are Amurricun dont meen I cain't reed gud nor travle), I just fail to see how that applies in the context in which Andy quoted his instructor...
But, we can agree to disagree...
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the
appropriate
I understand those cultural nuances Swingman, and I've experienced environments different from what we enjoy here at home, as well. There is a difference though between what was allowed as a part of the job, on the work floor, even back then, and what really existed in people's lives. Even back then, kids worked with tools outside of the workplace, albeit they hadn't completed any apprenticship. The whole conversation has not been about the rules of closed shops and shop rules, it's been about kids learning and doing. I agree with Duane that the instructor was wrong in what he said, regarless of the cultural environment at the time. Beyond that, this is 2004 and not some other time in history when things were different.

I
Not so different from union shops today.
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wrote:

<http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/Trellis/Mortising%20-trellis (Ryan&Tars).JPG>
I guess he had that finger reattached for this picture
http://www.msd.k12.mo.us/vocational/woodworking/Fish%20Tank/cabinent%20inside%20corner%20Tars.jpg
Frank
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I particularly like the overhead router on/off switch hanging loose by some wirenuts
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some
Ouch - I didn't see that one the first time around.
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You scare me Larry. I didn't see a picture there where they were doing anything unsafe. Push sticks on a router table is not one of the best ideas I've ever heard. Hands inches from the bit? Yeah - it's called woodworking. It requires control in order to be safe. Look at what they are routing and suggest a safer alternative.
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I too don't see any glaring safety hazards. Some of the kids in the background(s) didn't have their safety glasses on...but I'm sure they've been told umteen times. Table saw guards and spliters in place. No long sleeves or long hair evident. I noticed some have hearing aides but one might wonder why they don't wear the muffs to preserve what little hearing they might still have.
Larry(...not the original poster)
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wrote:

I suspect the power tools have a lower noise level than the cars-turned-into-boom-boxes in which they drive around. :-(

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"Chetandra sanding her yo-yo" is one caption which might have been reconsidered. :)
FoggyTown "Cut to shape . . . pound to fit."
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"Ryan using a vibrator..."
I have to agree with others here, other than the photographer running around doing flash photography while the kids are in the middle of operations I don't see anything to get in a twist about. I hope they warned them a flash was coming before they fired up the machine.
-Leuf
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