WOT: Gun Buy Outs

[Charlie Self]

A week or so ago, a few Lynchburg churches got together with the cops, and decided to buy any illegal guns that were brought in, no questions asked, amnesty offered and all that truck. The stated and heavily publicized idea is to get illegal guns off the streets, thus reducing crime.

It was well publicized and praised, while I sat back and pondered, coming to the conclusion, "WTF?"

In the end, they got one gun, with the follow-up article going on to say that it was a great start, but ONLY a start.

That brought another question to mind: "WTF?"

Is there something wrong with my thinking, or with theirs, in that I do not believe the people who use legal or illegal guns in criminal acts are going to show up at these buyouts? About the only person liable to turn in a weapon at one of these affairs is the person who accidentally urns up great-great-aunt Lucy's derringer with a cracked barrel, IMO. Grab $100 for a $1 curio.

Too, in this state, about the only way to have an illegal gun is to be a convicted felon with one in your possession.

I'm also thinking of starting a group called Liberals for Firearms. That should frost a few noses on both sides of the aisle, including the local butt wipe who write the paper implying that Obama supporters who don't have patriotic bumper stickers are unpatriotic.

Semper fi!

[Dr. Deb]

The problem, and while it is not limited to those on the Left is very prominent among them, is a failure to THINK. By think, I mean take a good long look at what you are advocating and do it in the cold light of day. Ask questions along the following lines:

1) What will be the REAL immediate impact of this piece of legislation or social action? 2) What will be the long term impact of this piece of legislation or social action? 3) What unintended consequences could arise from this action?

4) With what is proposed, could it actually make things worse and if so "how?"

While there are more questions to be considered, you get the idea. The root of the problem is two fold:

We live in a "sound bite" world and folks have, for the most part (this applies acrose the board) forgotten how to critically assess. Also, we have a large segment of the culture that denies the existance of any form of "absolute." Therefore, all things become possible

For what its worth

Deb

[Leon]

Snip

Sorta goes with the mentality of implementing the Marijuana Stamp.

[Upscale]

Yup, it's highly doubtful. The intention is that any gun turned in (even aunt Lucy's derringer) is one more gun that won't turn up somewhere in the hands of the criminal element. I can't comment on the efficacy of the program, but the effort put into that particular instance where only one gun was turned in might well have been better used somewhere else in gun crime prevention.

Offhand, it sounds like an attempt to do *something* by some people who just don't know what else to do about fighting gun crimes.

Up here in Toronto, Canada, there was a similar program recently (billed as Pixels for Pistols) where a gun turned in garnered a new digital camera as recompense. At the very least, the program is good for people who don't have a decent disposal option for their guns. And, I'm sure a popular response will be that the only guns turned in were likely to be from responsible people, not the criminal element.

the end after several months, I believe several hundred firearms were turned in. I don't know if there was any resulting or recordable drop in Toronto gun crimes as a result of the program. At a guess, it may have had slightly more of an effect here where guns aren't as common as they are in many US locales.

[Lew Hodgett]

Location, location, location.

This past weekend, a buy out program was conducted here in L/A.

A $100 food card was given in exchange for a firearm.

There were 20 drop off stations.

Simply drive buy, have a cop remove the weapon from vehicle, get card, and drive away, no questions asked.

The program was so successful, they ran out of cards early in the day.

Lots of "Saturday Night Specials" were collected.

Another collection day is planned.

On average, would guestimate that 3-5 people are shot and killed every day in SoCal.

People are getting tired of the violence.

Appears to be an entirely different mentality in Virginia.

Lew

[jo4hn]

There was a gun buyback in LA this past weekend. Turn in a gun and get gift cards for $50 or $100 for Aunt Lucy's derringer or Uncle Vito's semi-auto. Hundreds were turned in. They ran out of gift cards and still guns were being turned in. Seems like the bigger the local problem the more success you will have. mahalo, jo4hn

[Upscale]

I wonder if there were people running around trying to buy old guns for $25 so they could sell them to the buy-back program and make a profit.

[HeyBub]

They had one in Oakland last year and were paying $250/gun. A couple of dealers from Nevada showed up with Saturday Night Specials that they had bought (wholesale) for about $85 each and made out like bandits.

Your statement, however, "On average, would guestimate that 3-5 people are shot and killed every day in SoCal. People are getting tired of the violence" begs the question. First, what evidence is there that these people didn't need killin'? Secondly, might it not be the case that considerably MORE people need to be shot.

No, a statement of the form: "three people a day are shot" is not indicative of the type of action, if any, that might be required.

If they ever have a "gun buyback" program in my neighborhood, I'm gonna set up a table and offer twice what the going rate will be. Of course, I'll be selective, but, who knows, I might end up with a Barret .50 cal for $200.

[Lew Hodgett]

Get some help, you need it.

Lew

[Charlie Self]

Generally, a lower level of violent crime, I think, though we do have a sufficiency of gun murders.

Just as things get really to the point of lowering the boom on gun owners, someone ends up blowing away a miscreant--about three weeks ago, a guy shot and killed a violent drunk who was invading his home. A few years ago, a woman used a shotgun to remove a guy who kicked down her door in an effort to get to her. He was blown right back outside, IIRC.

As population increases, violent crime will, too.

[Lew Hodgett]

=============================== As population increases, violent crime will, too. ===============================

Just to put things in perspective, when I came to SoCal in 1990, the state population was about 30 million.

Today it is past 38 million and still climbing with about half the state population in SoCal, or 19 million.

19 million exceeds the population of probably all but about 5-6 of the other states in the USA.

A lot of the land in SoCal is uninhabited, so the rest has a rather high population density.

High population density and the influx of drug gangs from Mexico make things a little dicey sometimes, especially in the inner city areas.

Lew

[Lew Hodgett]

Take your choice, either dessert, mountain terrain or both.

San Bernardino County is larger than the state of Connecticut but contains large chunks of both the San Bernardino National forest as well as the Mojave dessert.

As a result, there are probably close to as many rattlesnakes as there are people in San Bernardino County.

In addition, Riverside and Imperial counties both have large dessert area within their boundaries.

If you have seen any of the coverage of the wild fires burning in Santa Barbara County the last few days, you get a feel for some of the mountainous terrain around SoCal.

Lew

[charlie]

lack of water

[Lew Hodgett]

Nah.

We steal all we need from up north.

The Aquaduct was built for a reason.

Lew

[Upscale]

Why is that, terrain not flat enough?

[John Grossbohlin]

Perhaps he didn't articulate that well... I think his point is that there are a significant number of defensive firearms usages each year and "bad guys" that need to be stopped end up being shot... Others who are involved in gun regulation research and politics have written similar things. It's not that the defensive gun users want to shoot anybody... the idea is to stop whatever action led the defensive gun user to shoot. As stated by the original poster it was a rather inflammatory statement. Worded as someone like Gary Kleck, Dave Kopel, Gary Mauser, or Don Kates might say it it would look much more reasonable.

John

[jo4hn]

How does one know which are the "defensive gun users"?

[Lew Hodgett]

What is the purpose of law enforcement?

The NRA has been very successful throwing crap (AKA: Fear Mongering) on the wall; however, the masses are beginning to see thru their crap.

Less and less of it is sticking on the wall these days.

Lew

[John Grossbohlin]

Interesting question... criminal on criminal mutual combats wouldn't count but clearly there are myriad instances of firearm deployment, with and without shooting, where it is clear that criminal behavior was being stopped by an intended innocent victim. Of course there are gray areas that are later judged under "reasonable man" assessments of the situation.

In the end the "facts" surrounding a shooting turn out to be ambiguous stimuli that are subject to cognitive manipulation. That is how law enforcement is sometimes deemed wrong and where police and civilians alike are judged to have committed justifiable homicide. Figuring out which is which is not unlike the figuring out which of the myriad ways to properly do hand cut dovetails is correct... ;~)

John

[John Grossbohlin]

That assumes that they are there to do something... if they are fine. If they aren't what are you going to do? It's not about being judge, jury and executioner it's about stopping whatever behaviors led to the weapon deployment in the first place. If mere presence doesn't command compliance then shooting may be the only way to stop the behavior. The research literature is full of support for this notion... and the NRA doesn't own the tier one, peer reviewed, academic journals in which it appears.

We'll solve nothing here... and we're WAY OT! Read a couple hundred journal articles and then make an informed opinion. Folks like Gary Kleck went in with a bias and their intellectual integrity led them to change their opinion. Dig up a copy of Gary Kleck's Point Blank for a good start on a literature review--it's got lots of citations. Dig up the stuff from Art Kellermann, et al., in the medical literature too... there is a marked difference between the two schools that becomes clear after you read a lot of articles. What say you?

Me... tonight I'm thinking about teaching another hand cut dovetail class as I've received a number of requested recently... Helping lay the groundwork to get Heller to the USSC pretty much cured me of arguing about gun regulation! LOL