Workshop In An Alternate Homepower Environment

[Ed Huntress]

That's great news, John! When you get to it, let us know how general you think this approach can be for the rest of us.

-- Ed Huntress

[Me]

Naw, we will just Nationalize their Dept, just like they did with ours, years ago....Payback is a bitch...isn't it..... Remeber the Red chineese never did pay us back for WWII........

Me

[Prometheus]

Sure. Why not. Oh wait, perhaps it's because they have 2 billion people to fight for them, and a good hunk of our industry. Remember we won WWII because we could build a couple of war machines for every one that the axis powers destroyed. I know, we've still got capacity to produce tanks and planes, but not on the scale needed to beat China with brute manufacturing force- Detroit would have been good for that, but that's gone now. We also used to have a nation of people who loved to work hard and innovate to get ahead. Now we've got a bunch of overgrown whiny fat kids who sit on their asses and watch the tube all day, people who can't even spill coffee on themselves without running to find a lawyer, and whole piles of jerks who can't wait to take the pill-of-the-week to make up for the fact that they're sad/lonely/impotent/lazy/fat/distracted/herpes-ridden.

How, exactly, are we supposed to enforce our claim on anything? Using the poor to kill random brown people every couple of years isn't an indication of strength, it's more akin to schoolyard bullying.

[Charlie Self]

You think? It was the Nationalist Chinese we assisted in WWII, not the Reds. IIRC, Mao and buddies didn't take over until '49, at which time the Nationalists boogied to Formosa (aka Taiwan). The Reds have never owed us anything but a hard time, in their philosophy, which they have given us time after time.

[Cliff]

USA is an island in Japan.

IIRC He also has part ownership ...

[Glenn Ashmore]

Actually the US worked with both the Nationalists and the Communists during WWII. The Chinese Communists were very helpful during WWII. The Nationalist government, army and police were largely corrupt while the Communist were much better disciplined and effective at fighting the Japanese. That is also why it was so easy for them to chase the Nationalists off the mainland. We supplied them with quite a bit of arms and equipment. The communists returned any escaped POWs to US units while the nationalist were just as likely to give them back to the Japanese if the money was right.

It was only after the war when the Communists started gaining ground and Mao aligned himself closer to Stalin that we started getting nervous.

[wmbjk]

driven generator

Perhaps in some niches... but in any event a practical home power setup needs some batteries, and charging them with wind, assuming there's wind to harvest, is highly recommended. So you're talking about *adding* systems because you believe it's worth the trouble, but you haven't supplied any numbers or examples to back up your position.

But both are less practical than batteries.

How big a tank? I think you're going to find a fly in the ointment once you run some numbers on air consumption. And if air power could be so efficient and practical, why do you believe it is that off-gridders, often known to be innovative and unafraid of breaking with convention, haven't flocked to the concept?

There's isn't any peak power wasting problem that I'm aware of with home power systems, since the cost of generating prevents people from buying excess capacity. Can you give an example of the problem you're citing?

You left out the AC to DC conversion of the turbine, and assumed that energy used must be stored in a battery first. It's true that compressed air for tools is a very inefficient process, on-grid or off. Yet I've managed quite well with the just the same sort of compressor that grid-connected folks use. I could do wind-powered shop air more easily than most, but I wouldn't dream of adding another system to cure an inefficiency that's such a small part of the big picture.

Coincidentally, I have a neighbor who plans a Bowjon type installation (low tower, bulky rotor, single-stage compressor) for shop air using multiple surplus storage tanks. I've suggested that since he hasn't any wind power at present and could really use some, that the time and money he's going to put into the new setup would be better spent on a conventional wind genny and a tall tower.

That's one of those convenience/practicalities tradeoffs. Many appliances don't like being de-powered, and it's a nuisance to fight it. IMO, biting the bullet for full time capacity is one of those things that goes a long way to making off-grid living palatable for the average person. After a hard day of pining over the dearth of rural ballet, the last thing you want is to have to reprogram the clock on the microwave. :-)

The conversion losses are lamentable, but not generally worth working around. As Scott mentioned, after you've fought that battle for a while, you're ready for straight AC in order to eliminate the diddling.

The fuses definitely couldn't handle it - 400A limit (24V system). What kind of *home* welding are you doing that takes 24k Watts input?

People can size for whatever they can afford, but if I had the need for more indoor stick/TIG, I'd be after one of these

should be a comfortable fit with our setup. But I find I rarely stick weld indoors above about 120A, although I use the Powemig 255 up to its max more often. The only really heavy stuff I have to work on are the tractors, and that's only occasionally. Since they don't fit inside, and neither does the smoke and dust of heavy work, I roll an engine-driven unit outdoors.

The auto-idle feature of a good unit will make that bearable, if the tools' idle use is compatible. Still, the generator is going to be either idling or roaring in between power tool use, at an average of about $2 per hour in fuel. When we first moved onto our site, but before we had the power system set up temporarily, I was stuck with the welder generator. The running hours add up quickly, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else except for occasional or temporary use, or because there was no alternative, or if it's for a job that pays enough to cover the expenses and aggravation.

Everyone has different needs, wants, and budget, but I think you'll find that more and more people have a potential combination of house loads that need such capacity that shop use isn't a leap. Around here for instance are many who need to power the surge of a 2 hp well pump, along with other use concurrent. It can be done with a smaller inverter and a generator, but it's sure nice to get that generator time down if you can. We used to have a couple nearby who had a generator/battery/inverter setup, over 10 hours generator time per day. That's about 4000 hours and 2000 gallons of fuel per year. I think the fuel cost, repair costs, and eventual generator replacement cost were big factors in their pulling out after a few years. Even a modest amount of PV could have cut that generator time in half, and would have been far cheaper in the long run. Better still, the cost of that (very nice) generator and fuel could have bought a combination of hardware including a much smaller generator needing only a few hours per week run time.

Not necessarily. Cashing out of a grid-connected place allowed us to retire, start with a clean slate, and as the yuppies say, "leverage" the advantages of home power to help keep the big picture cost down. Cheap land, lower taxes, fewer utilities (still need the phone company) are some of the benefits. In talking to off-gridders, I find that the main factor affecting success isn't so much the power issues, but whether the folks can afford and are comfortable with truly rural living. For most, that usually means retirement or telecommuting, and precludes having children at home. For those who need to commute or be close to school busses etc., they're usually stuck with paying the premium for grid access. Then again, when they want to generate their own power, they can have cheaper and more efficient systems, and use the grid for storage.

Wayne

[F. George McDuffee]

I have received many emails on this.

I will repeat that it is a legal fiction that the stockholders control a corporation. If this were not the case, corporations would not be allowed to hoard cash (rather than paying dividends), squander profits on extraneous and unrelated business ventures of doubtful potential, and pay exorbitant executive compensation and perquisites. Additionally, some stockholders are more equal than others. Different classes of stock have been introduced so that control is no longer proportional to ownership.

The real controllers of corporations are their financers as they can fund or not fund the operations, issue or not issue their IPOs, etc. Note that in making " secured " loans, operational [policy] control is achieved without any concurrent/concomitant risk. As most of the problems of the basket case corporations have been created, maintained and exacerbated by the availability of " easy money, " it is only reasonable the people that supplied the " easy money " [and earned enormous profits] should be forced to stand the resulting losses.

When a corporation goes bankrupt and is either reorganized [chapter 11] or liquidated [chapter 7] the stockholders generally lose their entire investment. In too many cases the employees are also the stockholders where the company has crammed their defined contribution plan [401k] with the company stock. When a corporation is reorganized, new stock is issued and may be used to " pay off " the unsecured creditors. Stock in the old corporation is worthless. Another typical scam is to create an ESOP or employee stock ownership program, where the employees may own stock but have no voting rights. It is this " vapor paper " that several corporations are proposing to use to pay their obligations to the PBGC.

While it would have not affect >

[Pete C.]

Why would the Japanese devalue their product by putting "Made in USA" on it?

Pete C.

[Arnold Walker]

wind driven generator

Another fly in the oiment on your battery remark.....if batteries are so much effecient at storaging .Why are repair shop using air tools instead battery powered tools.

which should be a comfortable fit with our setup. But I find I rarely

[Arnold Walker]

wind driven generator

Another fly in the oiment on your battery remark.....if batteries are so much effecient at storaging .Why are repair shop using air tools instead battery powered tools.

which should be a comfortable fit with our setup. But I find I rarely

[Arnold Walker]

wind driven generator

Another fly in the oiment on your battery remark.....if batteries are so much effecient at storaging .Why are repair shop using air tools instead battery powered tools.

which should be a comfortable fit with our setup. But I find I rarely

[Arnold Walker]

wind driven generator

Another fly in the oiment on your battery remark.....if batteries are so much effecient at storaging .Why are repair shop using air tools instead battery powered tools.

which should be a comfortable fit with our setup. But I find I rarely

[wmbjk]

You only need to calculate the numbers for volume and consumption, as I'm in agreement that with good wind, it's feasible that a resourceful scrounger could put up sufficient rotor area.

Excellent point, and I've committed it to memory in case I decide to do a utility-scale installation. :-)

They're nearly ten years old now, and I won't be surprised if they make 15 or 20. But home power systems pretty well always need *some* batteries, so all we're talking about is whether the size could be reduced somewhat by an additional system. And keep in mind that a primary goal of home power (at least at my place), is to minimize the energy that makes a trip through the batteries.

Well, since my uh, somewhat unconventional neighbor ;-) thought of doing compressed air, I think that if it were viable for home power, it should have become popular by now. The subject of home power scale pumped hydro comes up here regularly, and those impossible numbers can be found in the archives.

I've never heard of that being an issue, and it certainly hasn't come up at my place, which has a high ratio of wind charging capacity to battery size, and some pretty gusty winds.

I think that once you run some numbers, you'll find that an air system with the capacity you're thinking of will need several big rotors. While I do have a small wind turbine scabbed onto my tower some distance from the top, I couldn't add even one Bowjon type thing the same way. Cheap rotors (multi-piece sheet metal) end up being pretty heavy. IIRC, the Bowjon has a gearbox as well as the pump.

If you're serious, I'd like to see some numbers. How much can the waste heat from 12kWhrs of inverter use raise the temperature of 80 gallons of water? And how practical is it to capture that by adding yet another element to a solar water-heating system?

Except for the unloader valve which isn't required, that's an approach I've recommended previously here, partly because the drop in wire size can save a few bucks on a deep hole. But you're still talking about a good-sized inverter, plus a transformer, plus a VFD. Considering the other benefits of dual inverters, our preference was to do that instead, even though at 1/2hp a VFD wasn't required here, so the savings on that didn't count.

Why do you say 24-7? An affordable startup concept I've recommended to a few is an inverter/charger, batteries, and a Honda EU series. Run the generator, say, every day for a couple of hours at max output during peak load times, and for several hours every so often for battery health. Add solar, wind, etc. as budget allows until generator time is minimal. For example - DR1512, EU2000, and a string of batteries from Sam's Club - perhaps $2k total.

We were fortunate to be the telco's guinea pig for a couple of radio systems. The current one gives us multiple POTS lines (although we only use one) plus DSL. Standard bill, same as if we were hard-wired. Satellite intenet and next gen wi-fi brings similar connectivity to just about anyone who needs it.

You have a home shop and an idea for a cheaper alternative to batteries, the cost of which home power users love to complain about. Do I need to spell it out for you? ;-)

Wayne

[wmbjk]

For the same reason that I use many air tools in my own shop - because they're often lighter, cheaper, and more compact than electric versions. Sometimes efficiency isn't very important.

Now, if compressed air is so much more efficient than batteries, then why do *you* think that we're seeing ICE/battery hybrid cars driving around, but not ICE/air hybrids?

Wayne

[yourname]

1] Habit; they were taught with air tools 2] They don't care a whit about efficiency 3] Seen a 300ft/lb cordless impact wrench lately? 4] electricity+gasoline=bad

[Scott Lurndal]

I'll just point out that we didn't have that capacity in 1941, but we did by 1945.

scott

[Pete C.]

You would need the right location and the right shop use to make it practical. Good wind and a custom cabinet shop perhaps.

That's pretty good battery life, you must keep on top of the maintenance.

PH is indeed not feasible for 99.9% of potential homepower locations, CAS is far more feasible.

I don't have any cites for it, but it seems quite reasonable to me to think that there could be windy times when the gen is capable of supplying more power than the charger is drawing, much like the gas generator running with the potential to supply say 4kw and a load on it of only 2kw.

Tower loading is always an important thing to keep track of.

Well, they have systems for recapturing waste heat from showers available commercially. They also have the energy recovery ventilators to recover some of the heat from the stale air they are exhausting. Someone's done the math on those items and determined that it's worthwhile.

Unless you're in a cold climate where you can always directly utilize the waste heat for space heating I'd think there would be some merit to using it for preheat of water to the DHW system. Probably also slightly increase the life and efficiency of the inverter.

What's the transformer for? Most applications for VFDs that I've seen don't use them. Many of the small to mid sized VFDs are specifically rated to take single phase input and they're also a lot more reasonably priced these days. At some point I'll replace the rotary phase converter (home built, $20 in materials) on my Bridgeport with a VFD.

That can work fine as long as the goal is to gradually add other sources. If the plan is to stick with the generator as you comment I was replying to implied, then the 24x7 operation is what should allow you to operate at peak efficiency.

I looked into satellite not long ago when I was moving to TX. Looks like it's fine for general use, but it doesn't handle VPN for telecommuting well at all.

Where I ended up I have cable modem which I got with the package deal that comes with the expanded digital cable, and two phone lines from the telco in a rotary hunt group with flat rate long distance. Work pays for the cable modem and the second phone line, so I get quite a bit of communications capability and halfway decent TV pretty cheap.

Well, up first on my list is a solar water heater to take over for the electric one the place came with. Should be a really easy project that will have a short payback time. Solar A/C will be a bit more complicated.

Pete C.

[Pete C.]

Partly true, but the big ones in the auto shop environment are cost and durability. Air tools are much more durable than most battery powered tools, and their cost relative to their performance is low since the real power source for all those air tools is one big compressor and it is directly providing mechanical energy to the tool.

Pete C.

[CW]

That's a little remembered fact. We could do it again.