WORKING TIPS FOR NEW WOODWORKERS 1

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Expert Woodworker shouts:

You might have been less aggressively attacked if your first note was more reasoned. You presented your under $500 list as the be-all and end-all of a start-up shop, not as an approval of items picked by your grandson. But you provided NO such explanation, nor did you explain he had access to your measuring and layout tools, or your compressors.
You attacked members of the group first, not by name, but by group, stating that the "self appointed experts" were jerks who wanted everyone to buy only top of the line tools. Yet you resent being taken to task for a relatively goofy list of tools for a beginner--it is actually a better list for someone expert enough to allow for, and get around, the failings of such cheap tools, and even then, it's not much good.
You continue to anoint yourself as an Expert Woodworker, but other than tirades about how you have been attacked, you provide no information about your work, whether as a teacher or a woodworker, hobbyist or pro. We not only don't know WHO you are, we don't know WHAT you are simply because you refuse to tell us even the basics.
Yet you whine on about being attacked aggressively, as you snarl at those who question your "expert" judgment.
Charlie Self
"Man is a reasoning rather than a reasonable animal." Alexander Hamilton
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote

No, I never did that. It is just a handle. I already apologized for ruffling your feathers. Like I said, I am not an efficient communicator.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme says...

... snip

A few years ago, Aviation Week magazine re-ran their "man behind the desk" ad. There is a dour looking old gentleman in suit and tie sitting behind a desk, the caption goes (from memory):
"I don't know you, I don't know your company, I don't know what you stand for, I don't know your reputation. Now, what was it you wanted to sell me?"
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You may have tested the particular item, but who's to say that when _I_ buy one, it won't be the same branding, but completely diffferent (and even junkier) guts? That's how these cheap tool makers work, isn't it? (That's how cheap PC builders work).
Also, I have some air tools, and use them from time-to-time, but what the heck is an air screwdriver?
Jim H
wrote:

said,
advanced
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wrote:

I must say that I am shocked at the personal attacks I have gotten today. I knew that there would be one or two, but I certainly am surprised at the volume. I am up in years. I am not as young as most of you probably are. I offered advice on a series of products that I recently purchased and I have been accused of being a spammer, and my experience has been questioned. Did I ever say...hey don't buy a Jet cabinet saw or a Unisaw if you are a veteran. No. Heck, I don't understand this generation much at all.
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Expert Woodworker responds:

Best not to start off calling people jerks, then.

Damfino. I turned 65 in October. Seems to me most of the guys on here are in their 40s and up, and there are at least 3 who are older than I.

You offered advice that is near useless for the intended audience, but spouted off about it being great advice from someone with lots of experience, knocking all the "self-appointed" expert woodworkers. Who appointed you?

Which one?
Charlie Self
"Man is a reasoning rather than a reasonable animal." Alexander Hamilton
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote in

I said that there was a small percentage, as in any other forum.

Make that 4, sonny.

Not all. Several.

I see that I am not very welcome here. Don't worry. I will not bother any one of you any more. I am not as efficient a communicator as I am a woodworker. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought I was being helpful.
Gary
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But you haven't answered the questions posed to you, as to why you recommend certain items.
Let's see some pics.
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wrote:

I
have
Did
Old age is no excuse for bad manners. Your replied to my message with a complaint about personal attacks. My message contained only polite questions. There is no way a reasonable person could have interpreted my remarks as being of a personal manner.
Jim Helfer "Beginning Woodworker" (And my age is simply and accident of birth).
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He guy's ....he ain't so bad - he's got Bay Area Dave nailed down cold....

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Well, if you read between the line, his email address does say "PRO SPAM"!!!
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Hi Expert Woodworker,
Exactly who are all these self-proclaimed experts? Despite the fact that we have many valued contributors - professionals from every walk of oodworking - with hundreds, if not thousands, of years of accumulated experience, I've only seen one guy who proclaims himself to be an expert woodworker!
As for starting out with the best, the usual advice I see on this group to newbies is to start out with the best they can afford. Which is good advice, but quite a different proposition to spending their life-savings.
Please continue your postings. Despite some weaknesses in the charm and humility stakes, there's a certain amount of horse-sense in your input and it will be interesting to learn whether you're a sage or a plage, a weezard or (hastily gets out the garlic and silver bullet) ........a leezard :))
Cheers,
Frank
<snip>

<snip>
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Expert Woodworker wrote:

Then WHY did you do just that below (snipped)

If you spend a little time during the year you could have come up with...
A couple, three hand planes from yard sales/flea market. $20
CS & Rip saw-same source, another $20
Set of Marples 6 for $40
Jig and stone to sharpen chisels and irons $50+/-
A B&D Screwgun $50
That ROS in an above reply $75+/-
A couple of Brushes $????? Been so long since I've had to buy one.
Put the rest into a BETTER TS
Just my $.02 I only have about 15yrs of WW'n, might be my ipnorance showing Yes the list can be adjusted in any number of ways. but you can get better tools and a better experience.
He would be FAR better served by the above list than the junk you bought him. If he knows how to do it by hand, and how to sharpen that is more important. It also makes many quiet hours of instruction/quality time.
Here's where I get flamed, but anything that has a blade and spins, I won't buy from HF, ESSSSPECIALLY for my grandson.
Kevin

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hey gang,
My advice is this. If woodworking looks like it may appeal to you do what I did. Start off with a good circular saw (PC) and an 18 volt cordless drill (DeWalt) and possibly a router if needed. I chose a DeWalt combo kit. Then buy a plan or download one of the many freebies on the web, for a simple project - say a picnic table or bookcase or garden bench.
If you have fun or have a knack you didn't know you possesed, get another plan. As your experience grows you'll get the tools you need when you need them. Use the wreck for advice when contemplating new tool purchases.
If you find you don't like to work with wood - impatient, confusing, whatever, you'll at least have a good circular saw and portable drill which will always be used for something around the house.
I've only been at this for about a year and have yet to get the high-end tools like a quality table saw (I use my circ saw w/clamp guide or a router) So, start with what you need first is my advice. Besides, you'll be amazed at the accumulated expense of all the little things you'll need as you progress such as nails, screws (different sizes, different uses), levels, squares, various hand tools, hardware, finishes, stains, brushes, molding, blades, nail sets, drill bits, counter sinks, lumber (my first 3 projects involved making things only with 2x material), sandpaper, etc, etc.
Just start small and grow with your abilities. -Jami
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Expert Woodworker proclaims:

And who proclaimed YOU an expert?

88% BS. Some of the tools may be (and note the may) fine, but what the hell do you want with Power Painter? For that matter, who needs an air screwdriver when there is no compressor on the list. Why a glue gun when yellow glue is so cheap: replace that with a clamp, and several more for the air screwdriver.
Where are the measuring tools?
Where are the layout tools?

Check around one helluva lot more than the HF site. This stuff may not be bottom of the barrel, but that's only because barrel bottoms have recently been redefined to be lower than whale shit.

Resume, please.
Charlie Self
"Man is a reasoning rather than a reasonable animal." Alexander Hamilton
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html
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<el sniperino> Here are the headers of our ****new expert woodworker****

Please note line 6. Tales of a Boatbuilder Apprentice http://pages.sbcglobal.net/djf3rd /
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wrote: [rearranged and snipped for clarity]

I'm not sure what your point is here. Can you elaborate?
-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
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My point is.... The fellow comes in like the preverbial 2 ton gorilla with what HE proposes is THE List for a beginning woodworker.
Who/What is the Pro Woodworking Society? Does it exist? Is he shilling for it? Is it a troll? Why even put such a title in your headers to begin with? Folla?
Tales of a Boatbuilder Apprentice http://pages.sbcglobal.net/djf3rd /
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Charlie Self wrote:

He's not telling the truth, I guaran-damn-tee. Spamming has only been around for a little over 10 years now, so there's no way he has over 40 years of experience in his profession.
Just so newbies don't get sucked in by the spam, here are some real thoughts on that subject from a bona fide low budget woodworker...
A complete wood shop for under $500?
No, I can't do it. I sat down to do a bit of figuring, and the best reasonably complete shop I could come up with was $750. That was a small table saw, a good corded hand drill, a workbench, vises, sharpening gear, chisels, two inexpensive used hand planes, rulers/gauges/squares, clamps, basic drill bits, basic hammer/screwdriver/utility knife, economy backsaw, flush cut saw, cheap circular saw, and a couple of decent Freud blades for the power saws.
It notably did not include a router, router table, router bits, sander, drill press, bandsaw or even a shop vac, so it wasn't even as complete as my own little shop.
It's nuts to think you have to start with all of that though. I started with a backsaw, a miter box, a cheap jigsaw, a cheap combination square, a hammer, a Craftman screwdriver set and an electric drill. Most of these were wedding gifts. The only tools I remember going out to purchase were the backsaw/miter box kit and a cheap set of B&D countersink bits.
Among other things, the plant stand and house shaped curio box on my web site were fashioned with nothing more than those simple tools. Fashioned in my *kitchen* I might add. So was my tool cabinet. I still have and use all of these things to this day.
When starting out, one trick is to buy as much as you can pre-cut to size. Avoid complex joinery and complex clamping by using screws and nails. Exploit every source of free, salvage wood from pallets to trash piles. Don't let all these folks on here with $15,000 tool collections and 1,000 sq. ft. shops fool you into thinking it takes a fortune to wreck some wood. They most likely didn't start out with all of that either, and they most likely didn't get all of that in one shot.
Begin at the beginning. Don't even try to buy a shop in a box. Buy tools as you appreciate the need for them. That way you get things you will use, instead of things somebody on the internet told you you'd need.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan < snipped-for-privacy@users.sourceforge.net>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
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While I can't totally agree with the list of tools it's close enough and the differences would just amount to personal preferences.
All in all though, I would say that that (Silvan;s) post truly contained truly expert advice.
--
Mike G.
snipped-for-privacy@heirloom-woods.net
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