wood screws

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On 7/5/2011 9:25 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

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"Leon" wrote in message
Their heads seldom become none useful, you just hear the click when the screw shank breaks. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it is a difference of what material you are working with.
If all you are fastening is softwood, you may get away using drywall screws.
Torque down a drywall screw on a couple pieces of hardwood, and you will hear the snap of the shank breaking before the head gets driven flush, every time. ;-)
-- Jim in NC
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On 7/5/2011 10:28 AM, Morgans wrote:

Torque any screw into hard wood, trying to drive the head flush, and you are looking for trouble. Hard wood needs a pilot hole and a countersink. Even in soft wood, a countersink is best or you can crush the wood before you get the head flush.
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Jack
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On 7/5/2011 10:12 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

Actually I can use a regular #8 flat head square drive screw with out a pilot hole in 3/4" red oak. Using an impact driver, when the head begins to bury inside the wood the wood will split. That was just to test the strength of the impact driver.
And that is why I switched to square drive screws 20+ years ago.
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On 7/5/2011 12:42 PM, Leon wrote:

OK guys, I just exited my shop after testing this out.
Using a 2" coarse thread #8 head dry wall screw, a Mcfeely's Robertson 2" #8 and a Home Depot 2" #8 outdoor screw and a scrap piece of 1 1/2 white oak (harder than red oak). I drove all of them right down past the countersink level with my impact driver. I did this 5 times with the drywall screw to see if a hot screw would snap as Mike suggested, and it was hot as hell, but didn't snap.
No lubrication used, no pilot holes, no broken heads, no broken shanks and no cam out with *any* of them. I even drove a couple of them all the way through until the white oak split. So much for Morgans statement that the drywall screw will snap every time. Wrongo!
The Drywall screw actually was the easiest to get started I think because it has the sharpest point, and to my surprise, the McFeely Robertson was the hardest to get started and, here's the surprise, was harder to keep the drill bit in when starting the screw. That may have simply been because the point wasn't sharp as the drywall screw.
I don't think I ever tried driving a screw into a 1 1/2" piece of white, or red oak w/o drilling a pilot hole before. The impact driver did it with ease, and all the screws handled it just fine. The countersink did exactly what I said as well, not a clean sink, but mostly with some broken fibers. One of the holes countersunk clean, no clue why.
I didn't try this with a regular drill, might do that next. Impact drivers I think are easier on the screws, the wood and the guy doing the driving. They are awesome. They don't un-screw my deck screws though, snap the heads off those suckers instantly.
--
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On 7/6/2011 3:46 PM, Jack Stein wrote:

screw in a #8 or larger. Where do you get them?
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On 7/6/2011 6:32 PM, Leon wrote:

They're around:
http://fasteners.hardwarestore.com/19-72-drywall-screws-packaged.aspx
--
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"Swingman" wrote in message
On 7/6/2011 6:32 PM, Leon wrote:

They're around:
http://fasteners.hardwarestore.com/19-72-drywall-screws-packaged.aspx
============================ Good for atomic blast rated drywall thicker than 2" :->
Handy for many other things too.
--
Eric


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On 7/6/2011 7:32 PM, Leon wrote:

I got them at a builders supply. The heads are #8 because before I posted the message, I compared the head to a screw chart, then put it up against a the head of the Mcfeely's screw. The body looks a bit thinner than a standard #8 wood screw, but the head is definitely a #8 and that's why I specifically said #8 "head".
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*snip*

I'd be interested to see the results of using a drill/driver. I would venture a guess (hm... sounds like a hypothesis) that the regular drill will damage the screws much more than the impact driver.
Puckdropper
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On 7/7/2011 4:20 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

OK, just did the test, only with the drywall screw though, and it went in, didn't snap, and counter sunk the head almost completely, but not quite. Much harder to keep a regular driver in the screw, required a lot more down pressure than the impact. Anyway, it still didn't snap and since I will always drill a pilot hole and countersink when screwing hardwood, worrying about snapping a drywall screw is last on my list of worries.
Also, since Leon questioned the screw size, I compared it to my chart again, and it might be a #7 screw head not an 8. I normally don't look at other than even numbers, and it is very very close to the same size head on the #8 McFeely screw, and obviously larger than a #6. Regardless, the body size looks more like a the body on a #6 standard screw head.
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Jack Stein wrote:

You do realize that the heads on DW and wood screws are totally different even though they are both "flat", yes?
--

dadiOH
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On 7/7/2011 11:46 AM, dadiOH wrote:

Yes, bugle heads on dw screws. They counter sink fine with a regular countersink, not so good on their own.
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wrote:

Right, DW screws have bugle heads, curved "flat".
-- Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt
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On 7/6/11 3:46 PM, Jack Stein wrote:

I'm guessing since it's already heat treated, heating up from friction won't effect it. Friction heat buildup on an un-heat treated screw will make it prone to snapping.
ASAIK, the heat treating done to drywall screws makes them resistant to stripping out at the heads and resistant to breaking from the friction of being driven by powered drivers. The treatment also makes them very brittle and not good for resisting heavy shear loads, like on holding up decks or cabinets.
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On 7/7/2011 1:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Screws are not designed for shear loads. Screws are really just clamps and they work by clamping two pieces of wood together.
I guess a screw expert might come up with a bunch reasons they should be only used for the intended purpose, but my experience, which is considerable, is they work fine for most, not all, things wood.
I agree with you on the heat treating of DW screws making them more brittle, they don't bend like a regular steel screw, but the heads simply NEVER strip out.
I've been using them (not exclusively of course) for many years, and don't recall ever snapping one. That's why I did the test. I don't recall driving any screws into Oak w/o drilling a pilot hole, so I gave it a shot, and reported what happened. Anyone with an impact driver, drywall screw and a hunk of Oak can test it themselves. That doesn't mean they are unsnappable, just that they work good enough that snapping is not that much of an issue.
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On 7/8/11 8:30 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

While I agree with this, anytime you use a cabinet screw to hang a cabinet, they are under shear load.

The other thing I haven't seen taken into consideration in this thread is that not all drywall screws are the same. In the collection I have in my shop, gathered over the last 15 or so years, there are probably 6 different designs. From course to fine thread, thick to thin shoulder, depth of threads, etc, etc.... there are lots of different ones that act differently from one another.
Some of my older ones have a much more narrow un-threaded shoulder than others, so it stands to reason that they would be more prone to breaking in that area.
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On 7/8/2011 12:37 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

I don't think they are, but hey, I'm not a scientist or a screw aficionado.... Well perhaps an aficionado, but not a scientist.

Yes, when I first replied to Leon, I mentioned there are drywall screws, and there are drywall screws. I've collected a variety as you have, BUT, all the screws I purchased at the builder supply place that sells mostly drywall, drywall products, and a bunch if concrete stuff for builders, have looked and behaved about the same. I guess professional drywall guys want a screw that is reasonably priced and not going to strip, break and so on.

You would think so, and apparently that has been some peoples experience. Screw failure to me has been rare, most notably to my deck screws, and only when trying to extract them after 20 years. I've never stripped a DW screw, and they work quite well when used appropriately. I would not use them to hang a kitchen cabinet, primarily because I don't have any near big enough for my tastes in cabinet hanging. I don't like the fine threaded ones either, I like the course ones for all woodwork.
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On Friday, July 8, 2011 6:30:51 AM UTC-7, Jack Stein wrote:

Classic wood screws for furniture, on the other hand, have a cylindrical barrel that has good shear strength, are made of softer metal that isn't brittle, and (best practice) are put into carefully predrilled holes. Also, they're getting hard to find. That kind of screw, unlike drywall screws, never competed with nails on price.
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"Jack Stein" wrote in message

Torque any screw into hard wood, trying to drive the head flush, and you are looking for trouble. Hard wood needs a pilot hole and a countersink. Even in soft wood, a countersink is best or you can crush the wood before you get the head flush.
====================== While I agree that the drywalls screws are very hard , thin (#6), and brittle and would snap easily that is hardly a fair comparison. The trumpet style head has a very bad taper, by design, for pulling it into a wood material at all. I am sure they are designed to not penetrate drywall surfaces the way a one angle sloped flat head is tapered, will penetrate a wood material.
--
Eric



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