WJ Book

[Duane Bozarth]

....

I just lay the phone down and let 'em talk until they finally figure out there's no response...at least they're bothering one other poor soul for just a few less minutes... :)

[Duane Bozarth]

...

A lotta' those useless things called trees might not have agreed... :)

[Edwin Pawlowski]

But they sure as hell look like an invoice. I don't have mine any more or I'd scan it and post it to get other's (and your)opinions. Just like junk mail that comes in plain brown official looking government envelopes, people can get confused. If I get a third one, I'll post it and then we'll pick it apart together. While perfectly legal, I see this sort of thing frequently in the commercial sector too.

I'm sure if they lost, they stop the practice. We are just expressing our opinions of it.

BTW, in case you missed my other post., I did hear from Woodworker's Journal about the subscription rates. It was clearly explained (that is all I asked) and I got a very fair deal. I'll probably renew again next time it comes up. They did take the time to reply and that is appreciated. I've had crow for dinner before and may have some more. Important thing is they did clarify.

[Leon]

Yes this is true but I get a LOT of this kind of stuff and much of it I do order. I am therefore obligated to pay for it. If I have a bunch of bogus products being sent to me such as this book and I have to cull through which really needs to be paid and which does not this becomes a nuisance to me. This is an old vendor trick played on many businesses. Send a company your product although they did not order it and maybe they will pay for it. While in the automotive business I often had products sent to me that I did not order. No packing slip but the main office would receive the bill. Fortunately our office was on the ball and matched a packing slip to EVERY bill. Believe it or not many businesses simply pay the bill. It is marketing at its sleaziest IMHO.

[Leon]

Umm, product being given away has a cost. Period.

Yes it is, the wast is factored in to the price of everything that they market. Those that pay for the product pay for the factored in waste.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Good suggestion. I'm hard on vendors at times, (a lot of times) but I'm also loyal to good ones and support them. I'm also not afraid to come back and say they did things right. This type of thing works both ways. I received a reply from one of the top guys. He took the time to explain things, showed I'm getting a good deal, and he has my trust. Overall, for the past few years I've been satisfied with the content of the magazine so I'd be reluctant to stop it and spite myself. Heck, next time I add to my web page I may even put a link to them on it.

I've made a couple of projects they had, I've bought some products they've featured including Rockler parts. Some time back they featured a circle cutting jig. I built one and have used it for cutting wheels out on the bandsaw. This is one of the benefits of WJ as well as other magazines.

Stuff happens. What separates the good guys is how they handle the problem and come to a resolution.

[Leon]

EXACTLY!

It was a marketing gamble.

EXACTLY!

Returning the book will do nothing to impact the cost of purchasing them and shipping them out.

No, it will not. No bearing on the cost at all but the profit on the campaign goes down as they realise it will. Sooo when deciding what price to charge for the book they simply offer the book at a higher price across the board to start with to make up for the ones that they speculate will not be paid for. Those that do buy the book are also paying for the books that are not paid for.

But you need to remember that the cost of the book is a fixed cost. The price to you and I if we decide to buy the book is jacked up to compensate for that percentave that they figured will not be paid for when distributed in this maner.

The price of the book is marked up to hopefully produce a given percentage of profit after factoring all normal costs + zero return for units uned in a campaign such as this. Take this type campaign out of the mix and the profit goes up per unit and maybe the price of the book goes for $8 instead of $9.

[Dave Balderstone]

It's okay to use paper... It grows on trees.

Example. The mill we buy our newsprint from has a fixed harvest area in northern Alberta. They harvest and pulp exactly zero trees per year. Instead, they lease rights to sawmills and buy the chips, which they then pulp and turn into what's recognized as the highest quality newsprint in North America.

Now, if cutting trees for lumber and using the chips for pulp offends thee, you're definitely in the wrong newsgroup.

[Dave Balderstone]

Waste is factored into the price of EVERYTHING that EVERYBODY f'ing markets. Do you buy tools? Waste is factored into the f'ing cost. Do you buy wood? Waste is factored into the f'ing cost. Do you buy food? Waste is factored into the f'ing cost. Do you buy clothes? Waste is factored into the f'ing cost. Do you buy vehicles? Waste is factored into the f'ing cost. Do you buy paint? Waste is factored into the f'ing cost. Do you buy stain? Waste is factored into the f'ing cost. Do you buy sandpaper? Waste is factored into the f'ing cost. Do you buy toothpaste? Waste is factored into the f'ing cost. Do you buy anything at all? Waste is factored into the f'ing cost!

Do you have a PayPal account? I'll send you a buck if you'll use it to buy a clue about this subject.

[John Flatley]

Mike,

I agree with your point. I was a bit off course. The first person to 'talk' to is the one that can solve the 'problem.'

That said, there is also a value to understanding the scope of a problem. And that scope can best be determined by inter-action with a common group. The action one takes may be different if they were the only one affected than if they are one of a large number affected.

When a thread grows too bloated and off topic, we have step away. If we are to find any value in these forums, we must be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. And I have learned a lot in this forum. (and a bit about woodworking too)

thanks for your point,

John Flatley Jacksonville, FL.

-- "No one has ever erected a monument to a committee."

[Patriarch]

alexy wrote in news: [e-mail]:

There are social costs. Besides disposal, the dealing with the invoices, and the wrangling over the real motivations behind the marketers, this whole episode disrupts the calm discourse and friendly conversation which normally occurs here on the wReck. ;-)

I mean, for example, this whole discussion distracts me from learning the intricate details of wiring my shop for 220V.

Patriarch

[Leon]

I see your point, I think you are missing my point. There are hundreds of cost factors that go in to determine the price of something you will buy. THIS METHOD OF MARKETING however points out to the consumer one of those "wasteful" cost factors and throws it in the consumers face. When the buying public sees such an obvious fixable waste on an item that he may consider buying he should be insulted to think that this type marketing has picked him to be the dummy thinking that he will not not realise that he is the one paying for those that do not pay.

I'll refrain from offering to sell you a clue.

[Duane Bozarth]

...

No, what bugs me is the end use of it as simply adding (for the most part) to the landfill or burn pile as most mass-mailings are.

[alexy]

Once again, you are assuming facts not in evidence. I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I see no evidence that you are right. Let's work a little example:

Assume that the fixed cost for the book writing, editing, graphic design, setting up the presses, etc. is $200,000. Assume that marginal printing cost is $5 per book (cost of paper, ink, electricity, postage) Assume they target 100,000 customers with their marketing campaign.

Scenario 1: wasteful (according to you) approach: Print 100,000 books Total cost: $200,000 + 100,000*$5 = $700,000 Hit rate from this approach 50% Paying customers: 100,000 *.5 = 50,000 Cost per paid-for book: $14 Gross Profit if sold for $20 per book: 50,000*($20-$14)=$300,000

Scenario 2: more economical (according to you) approach:

100,000 letters sent Hit rate from this approach 20% 20,000 books printed (NO WASTE!) Cost: $200,000 + 20,000*$5 = $300,000 Cost per book: $15 Gross profit if sold for $25 per book: 20,000*($25-$15)=$200,000

So with the waste-free approach in this example, even if the publisher raises the price by $5, he makes less money!

Note that I am NOT claiming that these scenarios are close to the real thing--I am just pointing out that there is not enough info here to accept your theory that their approach leads to higher costs for the book buyer.

And I have a sneaky suspicion that if I were in the publishing business, I WOULD know these costs and response rates, and would use the approach that would generate the best return.

[Mike Marlow]

Fear not, help has arrived. Wire away with reckless abandon but just remember to wrap the inside and the outside of your dust collector's PVC pipes with bare wire to avoid static buildup and the inevitable explosion and fire.

[A.J. Hamler]

And don't forget to use food-safe finish.

A.J.

[Gary]

This is my gripe too. If any of the numerous invoices I've received had an option that said: "I'm not returning this unsolicited book, not paying for it and want you to stop sending me these invoices"; I'd have checked it and sent the invoice back.

The way I feel now, I'll never resubscribe to your magazine because your invoices are misleading as they try and give the impression that our only options are "PAY" or "RETURN IT". I hope your book business makes up for your lost subscribers.

[A.J. Hamler]

not returning this unsolicited book, not paying for it and want you to stop sending me these invoices"; I'd have checked it and sent the invoice back.

[Pounds on Wood]

You could do what I do - mail it back. No check, no check mark, certainly no book, just an envelope full of their crap and whatever other daily junk mail I can fit in it. In fact, one of my favorite hobbies is mailing junk mail back to the sender in their prepaid envelopes. It doesn't help reduce the junkmail, the senders are too stupid to get the hint, but it does give me a satisfied feeling. For a second or two.

-- Bill Pounds

[Leon]

LOL, Of all the mail out solicitations, American Express simply does not get it. I bet I have mailed back at least 75 blank applications to them this year alone with the words Remove from Mailing List. I get 3 to 4 per week from them alone.